1982 World Final.

[MAUGERACE]

Just watched the dvd of the 82 world final from los angeles and having seen from all available angles; heat 14 Penhall v Carter was a travisty of justice, coming out of the 2nd bend Penhall in my opinion took out Carter's front wheel with his own rear and caused Kenny Carter to crash,Kittelssen was either blind,on something or corrupt to exclude Carter.......at least it should have been either Penhall excluded or all four riders in a restart, Kenny Carter was right he was robbed.

Edited August 10, 2007 by MAUGERACE

[Guest Steve Dixon]

Just watched the dvd of the 82 world final from los angeles and having seen from all available angles; heat 14 Penhall v Carter was a travisty of justice, coming out of the 2nd bend Penhall in my opinion took out Carter's front wheel with his own rear and caused Kenny Carter to crash,Kittelssen was either blind,on something or corrupt to exclude Carter.......at least it should have been either Penhall excluded or  all four riders in a restart, Kenny Carter was right he was robbed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Two lines condemning the refs decision then suggesting all four back??

Not so sure yourself then??

 

Search the forum, there is loads of disscussion already on this.

[MARK246]

Kenny Carter was right he was robbed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not as much as the man who should have won it Les Collins.

[Dean]

Just watched the dvd of the 82 world final from los angeles and having seen from all available angles; heat 14 Penhall v Carter was a travisty of justice, coming out of the 2nd bend Penhall in my opinion took out Carter's front wheel with his own rear and caused Kenny Carter to crash,Kittelssen was either blind,on something or corrupt to exclude Carter.......at least it should have been either Penhall excluded or  all four riders in a restart, Kenny Carter was right he was robbed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have to disagree MAUGERACE, ive viewed it myself and believe Kenny ran out of track, but due to his shear determination/single mindedness he refused to back off the throttle, no contact with Penhalls bike either, dont get me wrong as a 7 yr old at the time Kenny was one of my favs and i wish hed have backed off the throttle and tried to cut back, sadly his chance had gone, for ever!!!

[MAUGERACE]

Two lines condemning the refs decision then suggesting all four back??

Not so sure yourself then??

 

Search the forum, there is loads of disscussion already on this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Steve, no way am I unsure of what I believe,what I mean is that Carters exclusion was a nonsense, Kittelssen should have given Kenny the benefit of doubt and if he was afraid of kicking out Penhall then it should have been all four back in the race.

[Grachan]

When we had this discussion before there was a good quality clip of the incident posted. What happened was, Penhall's wheel flicked outwards coming out of the bend and took away Carter's handlebars.

 

Penhall was at fault as it wasn't part of his natural broadside, but there's no way the ref would have seen the contact. Carter may well have been taking a bad line at the time as well, but definitely Bruce Penhall was the cause.

[MAUGERACE]

When we had this discussion before there was a good quality clip of the incident posted. What happened was, Penhall's wheel flicked outwards coming out of the bend and took away Carter's handlebars.

 

Penhall was at fault as it wasn't part of his natural broadside, but there's no way the ref would have seen the contact. Carter may well have been taking a bad line at the time as well, but definitely Bruce Penhall was the cause.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes that how I see it too.

[rami]

Firstly the rules would not allow all 4 back as it was after the first bend so someone had to be classed as at fault. It is an arguement no one can ever win some beleive Bruce was to blame some feel Kenny was to blame, personally i dont feel Bruce did anything wrong as he was in front and that gives him choice of line - however Bruce was my hero and maybe i had rose tinted glasses on.

 

The main difference is both were great racers but only one had a racing brain (and he wasnt from yorkshire!!!) if Kenny had not gone for a gap that was never gonna be there he would have shut off and cut back under bruce going into the next turn as bruce did to him going into the turn before the crash. If Bruce had falllen on the straight before the crash Kenny would have definatley been excluded for the way he went into bruce, but as i said its all ifs and buts and everyone has a different opinion. one thing that most people do agree on though is that it was Les collins who was really robbed.

[BOBBATH]

Don't think we will ever solve this-I was privileged to be there in L.A.-a great meeting. I do think if Les Collins had gone on to win it would have been a bit of a shame(like Sczakiel and Muller) as good as Les was he was never really a World Champ.I agree with Rami re Penhall-BUT whatever the rules say I wish there had been a re run with all 4 riders. I do miss the old one off world finals for excitement-but I guess the Grand Prix is fairer-tho' its weird a rider can become World Champ without ever winning a single Grand Prix meeting like Mark Loram. Apart from Sczakiel and Muller, I think it was unfair that home rider advantage was so great at Wembley in the Lions era-I think it may have enabled Tommy Price and Fred Williams becoming World Champs.( and prevented Jack Parker in 49)

[MARK246]

Thats a bit unfair on Szczakiel and Muller, both won on home tracks but they were the best on the day.

Mauger crashed in the run off in 1973, thats not Szczakiels fault.

Muller won in 1983 because he used a GM engine which was better suited to the track, plus the fastest man on the day Mike Lee didn't make the start when he needed too.

The biggest farce of the one day finals was the Ermolenko win in 1993.How the referee allowed him back in the rerun in heat 15 when he, wasn't under power at the time of the stoppage, and had caused Hamill to crash was beyond belief.

Strange every ten years is a fluke champ !

[Gemini]

Firstly the rules would not allow all 4 back as it was after the first bend so someone had to be classed as at fault.

According to referee Tony Steele that's not correct and it doesn't have to be 1st bend bunching; a race can be re-run after the riders have gone by the first bend. However, perhaps the rules have changed since the 80's? It would be interesting to know what the actual rule says because everyone seems to be under the impression that someone has to be excluded.....apart from Tony Steele that is.

[Bellers101]

When we had this discussion before there was a good quality clip of the incident posted. What happened was, Penhall's wheel flicked outwards coming out of the bend and took away Carter's handlebars.

 

Penhall was at fault as it wasn't part of his natural broadside, but there's no way the ref would have seen the contact. Carter may well have been taking a bad line at the time as well, but definitely Bruce Penhall was the cause.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe it was part of his natural broadslide.

 

If you watch old footage of Penhall I have noticed that compared to most other riders he almost over steers with his back wheel coming out of bends. Whether there was a rider near him or not he had an uncanny habit of doing this. It is clearly evident in the '81 final where he was constantly trying to make long straights.

 

I have watched many Penhall races on video and to me this was just part of his style.

 

Me personally. Still can't make my mind up if Carter was pushed or simply fell.

One thing is for certain, he had "Noooooooooooo Chance!"

[lucifer sam]

When we had this discussion before there was a good quality clip of the incident posted. What happened was, Penhall's wheel flicked outwards coming out of the bend and took away Carter's handlebars.

 

Penhall was at fault as it wasn't part of his natural broadside, but there's no way the ref would have seen the contact. Carter may well have been taking a bad line at the time as well, but definitely Bruce Penhall was the cause.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Grachan,

 

No, from that same footage, I judged it was Carter's fault... he kept on going for a gap which was no longer there.

 

Carter hit Penhall at the completion of the lap, Penhall hit Carter halfway around the corner, but there was no contact on the second bend when Carter lost it and fell.

 

Tough, but that's racing.

 

All the best

Rob

[norbold]

Kittelssen was either blind,on something or corrupt to exclude Carter

 

I guess the subsequent debate on this issue shows that Kittlesen was none of the above.

[Grachan]

Carter hit Penhall at the completion of the lap, Penhall hit Carter halfway around the corner, but there was no contact on the second bend when Carter lost it and fell.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There was contact. Watch good quality footage, concentrate on Carter's left handlebar grip, and you will see it. It's 100% certain.

 

It is debateable whether or not Carter or Penhall were at fault, but what is indisputable is that there was contact. For me, Penhall's back wheel moved out into the line Carter was taking and swiped him.

[Harvey]

[Not as much as the man who should have won it Les Collins]

 

...I'm glad someone still has one-eye on the real traversty of the 1982 World Final. All the talk then & now is of Penhall v Carter. Yet, Les Collins came so close that night...and interesting to note that in the famous race it was Peter Collins leading, taking points off both Juicy Brucie and Kenny to help Les's cause.

[star ghost]

Regarding the "were Wembley Finals fair to all" angle ...........

Maybe Tommy Price & Fred Williams (twice) were Wembley riders but then Jack Young (twice, including as a 2nd Division rider) was not. Also Jack Parker and Vic Duggan, though not World Finals in name, still took honours at Wembley. Then along came Peter Craven, Ronnie Moore, Barry Briggs and Ove Fundin to win the titles without being Wembley riders.

When World Champions were crowned in the past they had to fight through a number of rounds before the Final. Nowadays they only need "inviting" to get a chance of topping the title-race.

[BOBBATH]

Fair enough starghost-but Wembley closed down before Briggs won his first title in 1957.I agree with what you say but I still think the Price and Williams championships might not be worth as much as the Young,Moore,Craven et al. who had to beat Wembley riders on their home track-not sure Price or Williams would have won on an away track.

[Shoddy]

[Not as much as the man who should have won it Les Collins]

 

...I'm glad someone still has one-eye on the real traversty of the 1982 World Final. All the talk then & now is of Penhall v Carter. Yet, Les Collins came so close that night...and interesting to note that in the famous race it was Peter Collins leading, taking points off both Juicy Brucie  and Kenny to help Les's cause.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I said this when this topic came up before but the story that 'Les Collins was robbed of the title' is just not that clear cut.

 

Had Penhall only finished second and Carter third all three would have been tied on 10 points with Collins and Carter still to meet in their last race which would have been a very different clash as Kenny had lost it by then. Even if Collins had won it would have been a run off with Penhall.

 

If Carter came second and Penhall third then Kenny would have been a point ahead with the pair of them still to meet. Collins would then have still had to beat Carter twice to win the title.

 

Had Penhall and Carter not been playing silly buggers anyway they would almost certainly have beaten Peter Collins. Has things worked out differently Collins may have had a shot at the title but to say he should have won it doesn't make any sense at all to me.

 

We had this whole discussion before and the slight majority seemed to think Penhall was at fault for the incident and lucky to stay in. It was a very split discussion though, even after all these years. A bigger majority agreed Carter should have ridden a cleverer race and avoided the whole problem, had he just backed off he could more than likely have got second place back - either way it would have still made this race one of the most talked about of all time although for the right reasons!

 

I think the 3 main facts are...

 

1. There was defiite contact.

2. Penhall was the one who moved line. He came out and his bike took Carter's front wheel from him.

 

I am not suggesting that solves the question either way though! For the second point did Penhall really have much choice but to drift after the line he'd taken into the corner anyway? Surely Carter knew he was coming and should have left room so it wasn't an issue? Whether there was intentional slide or a flick of the wheel is down to you to decide.

 

For me (as a confessed Halifax fan in the 80's!) Penhall was to blame and I'd have liked to see what decision would have been made had it been two different riders or at another track. I also have to add that only one rider was genuinely using his brain in that race which brings us on to the third, and most important, indisputable fact about this meeting...

 

3. Bruce Penhall is the 1982 World Champion!

[MARK246]

I said this when this topic came up before but the story that 'Les Collins was robbed of the title' is just not that clear cut. 

 

Had Penhall only finished second and Carter third all three would have been tied on 10 points with Collins and Carter still to meet in their last race which would have been a very different clash as Kenny had lost it by then.  Even if Collins had won it would have been a run off with Penhall.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't think a run off with Penhall would have been a problem for Les Collins,he had already beaten Penhall in race 4 (from the back).

 

As for Carter he lost it in heat 15 in 1981,not much else to say about him really,except his talent never matched his ego. Three world final apperances isn't a lot for a man people call "the best ever."