Kenny Carter Book

[iris123]

Was it? I was there and it was pretty obvious after the first couple of races that it was nailed on. Kenny himself summed it up perfectly for ITV: "Ole Olsen's one of the fastest riders in the world and e's just got passed him like he's dropped a chain. He's makin us all look stooopid! Get yer cameras on that bike." If Muller had needed to pass Nielsen in his last ride that day, he would have done that too. He had the say on track conditions - totally different from practice to race day. He was also riding one of the first super-tuned GMs, whilst everyone else was on Weslakes, Jawas, Goddens. To borrow another Kenny phrase, the rest of the field had "nooooooo chance!"

 

ps. note to Grachan...one day, I promise I'll stop banging on about this final. Honest :-)

Not going to get into the Carter stuff.Can't say i ever liked the guy........But a couple of points.Were the "super-tuned GMs" illegal then? Because only if they were illegal and everyone else was riding Weslakes,Jawas etc is that a valid point.Egon got kitted out with a bike worthy of a World Final if it was the best.Can you blame him for that?And surely it was blooming obvious the track was going to suit him.I mean you have a GP/World Final in Poland and they try to make the track suit their riders the same as they do in Denmark.......Only Egon was good enough to capitalise on those things.Other riders,particularly the Polish guys during the old one-off World Finals couldn't do it apart from the one.If Ivan Mauger ever found something that would give him even a tiny advantage he would use it and so would probably any World Champ

Edited December 1, 2009 by iris123

[lucifer sam]

[quote name='lucifer sam' date='Nov 30 2009, 12:18 PM' post='1646918'

the 1983 World Final was there for the taking and Carter didn't take his chance.

 

Was it? I was there and it was pretty obvious after the first couple of races that it was nailed on. Kenny himself summed it up perfectly for ITV: "Ole Olsen's one of the fastest riders in the world and e's just got passed him like he's dropped a chain. He's makin us all look stooopid! Get yer cameras on that bike." If Muller had needed to pass Nielsen in his last ride that day, he would have done that too. He had the say on track conditions - totally different from practice to race day. He was also riding one of the first super-tuned GMs, whilst everyone else was on Weslakes, Jawas, Goddens. To borrow another Kenny phrase, the rest of the field had "nooooooo chance!"

 

ps. note to Grachan...one day, I promise I'll stop banging on about this final. Honest :-)

 

Falcace, the above quote just shows why Kenny Carter was never World Champion. Such a defeatist attitude. Every track is there to be ridden. Carter should have concentrated on his own peformance, finished with 14 points and see if Muller crumbled once placed under a bit of pressure. But instead Carter gave up the fight and didn't even finish in the top three in what was a very weak final.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[lucifer sam]

Don't know about '82 being KC's peak. Still think he would have been very difficult to stop at Bradford in '85, after the way he demolished the rest in the BF at Coventry.

 

Tony, but the 1985 British Final wasn't the hardest meeting to win, especially given the absence of the likes of Simon Wigg and Michael Lee from the meeting. England wasn't in the best shape in '85 - remember the meagre 13 points at Long Beach? So winning the British Final wasn't that hard that season.

 

It must have been a weak final - Mavis came second.

 

All said and done, it says a lot about the impact Carter had on us and the sport itself that so many words are still being spoken and written about him today.

 

I agree entirely with that statement. Carter was box office, if not always for the right reasons. And that's what made your book so compelling.

 

All the best

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

[fatface]

Not going to get into the Carter stuff.Can't say i ever liked the guy........But a couple of points.Were the "super-tuned GMs" illegal then? Because only if they were illegal and everyone else was riding Weslakes,Jawas etc is that a valid point.Egon got kitted out with a bike worthy of a World Final if it was the best.Can you blame him for that?And surely it was blooming obvious the track was going to suit him.I mean you have a GP/World Final in Poland and they try to make the track suit their riders the same as they do in Denmark.......Only Egon was good enough to capitalise on those things.Other riders,particularly the Polish guys during the old one-off World Finals couldn't do it apart from the one.If Ivan Mauger ever found something that would give him even a tiny advantage he would use it and so would probably any World Champ

Muller took advantage of the odds that were stacked very heavily in his favour that day. I think we're actually in full agreement here! I was just making the point that it was hardly a chance missed for Carter. It was pretty much "noooo chance" for everyone..Carter, Olsen, Lee, Nielsen and the rest..

 

Falcace, the above quote just shows why Kenny Carter was never World Champion. Such a defeatist attitude. Every track is there to be ridden. Carter should have concentrated on his own peformance, finished with 14 points and see if Muller crumbled once placed under a bit of pressure. But instead Carter gave up the fight and didn't even finish in the top three in what was a very weak final.

 

All the best

Rob

I think your grasping now Rob. To say Kenny was defeatist is stretching it a tad. Can't recall many other riders taking on four World Championship rounds despite a progressively worsening broken leg. Your odd selection of the somewhat uneven playing field of the 83 World Final and a single test match at Oxford in 85 as somehow being barometers to measure the rider Carter was are really pretty perplexing.

[lucifer sam]

Muller took advantage of the odds that were stacked very heavily in his favour that day. I think we're actually in full agreement here! I was just making the point that it was hardly a chance missed for Carter. It was pretty much "noooo chance" for everyone..Carter, Olsen, Lee, Nielsen and the rest..

 

But had Bruce Penhall been still riding, I think he would have won in Norden in 1983. After that, I think Bruce's motivation would have slipped, but IMO he would have been up for Norden and won it.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[lucifer sam]

I think your grasping now Rob. To say Kenny was defeatist is stretching it a tad. Can't recall many other riders taking on four World Championship rounds despite a progressively worsening broken leg. Your odd selection of the somewhat uneven playing field of the 83 World Final and a single test match at Oxford in 85 as somehow being barometers to measure the rider Carter was are really pretty perplexing.

 

Falcace, he was brave, no doubt about that, but when the chips were really down, did he really believe in himself, despite all the outward bluster? Carter won so little - there has to be a reason for that.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[fatface]

But had Bruce Penhall been still riding, I think he would have won in Norden in 1983. After that, I think Bruce's motivation would have slipped, but IMO he would have been up for Norden and won it.

 

All the best

Rob

Impossible to say for sure. But I would certainly disagree. Muller was way, way faster than everyone that day. He absolutely pi$$ed past Ole Olsen (who was still a formidable competitor) on the first lap. Bruce nipped the same man by a tyre width the previous time they clashed in a World Final. We'll never know. But I went and really the meeting was all about Muller, minor places were only up fror grabs for the rest. I'm sure Tony Mac saw it the same way too.

 

Falcace, he was brave, no doubt about that, but when the chips were really down, did he really believe in himself, despite all the outward bluster? Carter won so little - there has to be a reason for that.

 

All the best

Rob

If my leg were broken. I'd be thinking the chips were down. He hopped on his 500cc bike and tried to do the impossible.

[iris123]

Impossible to say for sure. But I would certainly disagree. Muller was way, way faster than everyone that day. He absolutely pi$$ed past Ole Olsen (who was still a formidable competitor) on the first lap. Bruce nipped the same man by a tyre width the previous time they clashed in a World Final. We'll never know. But I went and really the meeting was all about Muller, minor places were only up fror grabs for the rest. I'm sure Tony Mac saw it the same way too.

The thing is why didn't Carter or anyone else that day put in a protest if they thought there was something illegal about Egons bike?Why don't they do this in general.I mean all the talk this year about Emil when he was way faster than all the others for a month or so.Why didn't anyone put up the money for a protest instead of all the whispering in the background and afterwards?We know there is cheating going on or at least there was.many riders have spilled the beans after they have retired.But very few get caught at it.......

[lucifer sam]

Impossible to say for sure. But I would certainly disagree. Muller was way, way faster than everyone that day. He absolutely pi$$ed past Ole Olsen (who was still a formidable competitor) on the first lap. Bruce nipped the same man by a tyre width the previous time they clashed in a World Final. We'll never know. But I went and really the meeting was all about Muller, minor places were only up fror grabs for the rest. I'm sure Tony Mac saw it the same way too.

 

So how come Muller only got a maximum because of someone else having an e/f? And Olsen wasn't as good in 1983 as 1981 - he did well to qualify for the final in 1983. Muller was beatable - and IMO Penhall would have beaten him.

 

But again it's pure conjecture.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[fatface]

The thing is why didn't Carter or anyone else that day put in a protest if they thought there was something illegal about Egons bike?Why don't they do this in general.I mean all the talk this year about Emil when he was way faster than all the others for a month or so.Why didn't anyone put up the money for a protest instead of all the whispering in the background and afterwards?We know there is cheating going on or at least there was.many riders have spilled the beans after they have retired.But very few get caught at it.......

I've never mentioned the word illegal. Muller did nothing illegal that day. Can I be any clearer? If you are looking back at Kenny's quote, it was said with humour. I would compare Muller's mechanical advantage that day with say, what you sometimes get in Formula One. Jenson Button didn't do anything illegal this season, but would he have won the world championship if his Brawn car hadn't enjoyed such a strong advantage at the start of the season?

[lucifer sam]

If my leg were broken. I'd be thinking the chips were down. He hopped on his 500cc bike and tried to do the impossible.

 

Falcace, you're missing the point. No-one is doubting Carter's bravery. However, his resistance to pressure was less good.

 

Kenny Carter didn't win a single big individual meeting in 1983. He didn't have a broken leg that year. What stopped Carter from going out and winning the big events in a year where he should have cleaned up. I think the answer is psychological.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[iris123]

I've never mentioned the word illegal. Muller did nothing illegal that day. Can I be any clearer? If you are looking back at Kenny's quote, it was said with humour. I would compare Muller's mechanical advantage that day with say, what you sometimes get in Formula One. Jenson Button didn't do anything illegal this season, but would he have won the world championship if his Brawn car hadn't enjoyed such a strong advantage at the start of the season?

Ok,fair enough.I saw the quote as a suggestion that Egons bike was illegal not as a humourous remark

[fatface]

So how come Muller only got a maximum because of someone else having an e/f?

It was his last ride, I think he only needed a third. So could happily to sit in second. Think PC 76, think Penhall 81. The way he was going, if he'd needed to win, he would have.

 

Falcace, you're missing the point. No-one is doubting Carter's bravery. However, his resistance to pressure was less good.

 

Kenny Carter didn't win a single big individual meeting in 1983. He didn't have a broken leg that year. What stopped Carter from going out and winning the big events in a year where he should have cleaned up. I think the answer is psychological.

 

All the best

Rob

You've abandoned the word defeatist then? Off the top of my head, Kenny won the big Olsen farewell, think he also won the World Final revenge at Vojens and Golden Gauntlets in 83 and top scored in winning the World Pairs with his good pal PC, but I'm nitpicking (and a little nerdish in my knowledge of that era!). Agreed that 83 wasn't his greatest year. Tony's book tells how business was a big distraction that year. You're probably right he could have won more in that particular year. But I can't be convinced the World Championship trophy itself was up for grabs. Gunther Sorber had that engraved in January

[lucifer sam]

You've abandoned the word defeatist then? Off the top of my head, Kenny won the big Olsen farewell, think he also won the World Final revenge at Vojens and Golden Gauntlets in 83 and top scored in winning the World Pairs with his good pal PC, but I'm nitpicking (and a little nerdish in my knowledge of that era!). Agreed that 83 wasn't his greatest year. Tony's book tells how business was a big distraction that year. You're probably right he could have won more in that particular year. But I can't be convinced the World Championship trophy itself was up for grabs. Gunther Sorber had that engraved in January

 

Falcace, since when has the Golden Gauntlets (not even sure which track staged it!!) been regarded as a big meeting? And Olsen's Farewell was a testimonial. You seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to find meetings that Carter won.

 

As for the World Pairs, I'd already brought that one up myself. England were pretty lucky that day to say the least, whilst the Aussies were most unlucky. The World Pairs always reminds me of Carter's awful performance in the '82 final. World Of Sport covered both the '82 and '83 finals.

 

All the best

Rob

 

 

 

 

[liverpool chad]

That's simply not true. I'm an Aces fan and went to the Shay for every Dukes v Aces match from 81-85 and only saw PC beat him once...83 would be my guess. He gated and held on grimly. Great ride it was too. Mort never beat him there..and god knows I wanted him to! if you have eveidence of PC or Phil Collins and Alan Grahame regularly beating him, then by all means bring it to the fore.

 

Only got a couple of Halifax programmes to hand from the time Kenny Carter rode for them. 1980 northen trophy, Mon April 7th met each other twice, heat 6 and heat 12. Peter Collins winning both races on his way to a 15 maximum. British League, Sat July 26th met each other twice, heat 6 and heat 12. Carter 1- Collins 1. Challenge match, Mon 25th August met each other twice Carter 1-Collins 1. The Autumn Classic, Sun October 19th. Met each other three times Carter 1(collins led but bike packed up on last bend) Collins 2.

Also recall them meeting in 1979 but Collins only dropped 4 points in something like 3 visits scoring 9 and 14 when i was in attendance and the only person to beat him was Ian Cartwright( i think) certainly not Carter.

I can recall Collins Beating him Twice in 1982 or 83 once in the league and once in either league cup or KO Cup.

 

The Peter Collins that you saw from late 1981 after his shoulder injury and return from retirement was completely different to the PC before his injury. In 30 meetings at the shay, Collins had a near 11:00 average scoring 13 maximums some of them 15 pt maximums. Will have to dig out all my old programmes to let you know any more info.

 

As for Phil Collins/Alan Grahame 5-1's. I saw it happen 3or4 timesin Carters time with Halifax usually occurring in heat 10 i think.

 

Regards

Mark.

Edited December 1, 2009 by liverpool chad

[fatface]

Only got a couple of Halifax programmes to hand from the time Kenny Carter rode for them. 1980 northen trophy, Mon April 7th met each other twice, heat 6 and heat 12. Peter Collins winning both races on his way to a 15 maximum. British League, Sat July 26th met each other twice, heat 6 and heat 12. Carter 1- Collins 1. Challenge match, Mon 25th August met each other twice Carter 1-Collins 1. The Autumn Classic, Sun October 19th. Met each other three times Carter 1(collins led but bike packed up on last bend) Collins 2.

Also recall them meeting in 1979 but Collins only dropped 4 points in something like 3 visits scoring 9 and 14 when i was in attendance and the only person to beat him was Ian Cartwright( i think) certainly not Carter.

I can recall Collins Beating him Twice in 1982 or 83 once in the league and once in either league cup or KO Cup.

 

The Peter Collins that you saw from late 1981 after his shoulder injury and return from retirement was completely different to the PC before his injury. In 30 meetings at the shay, Collins had a near 11:00 average scoring 13 maximums some of them 15 pt maximums. Will have to dig out all my old programmes to let you know any more info.

 

As for Phil Collins/Alan Grahame 5-1's. I saw it happen 3or4 timesin Carters time with Halifax usually occurring in heat 10 i think.

 

Regards

Mark.

In 79 and 80, Carter was 18/19 year old kid. But I'd be interested to hear the exact details of the matches in 82 and 83 which you recall. Particularly "running rings" round him in 82. So if you can dig those out, I'd be intuiged to hear of it. Ditto the multiple Grahame/Collins 5-1s.

 

[WATigerman]

Of all that can be said about Carter, the words "second rate rider" simply do not merit consideration. His level of achievement speaks for itself.

 

Does it..??!!

Struggling myself to think of too many..??

 

Nor did I offer any. As I said, his achievements spoke for him. Infer as you will.............

Edited December 2, 2009 by WATigerman

[TonyMac]

But had Bruce Penhall been still riding, I think he would have won in Norden in 1983. After that, I think Bruce's motivation would have slipped, but IMO he would have been up for Norden and won it.

 

All the best

Rob

 

 

Rob, Bruce had nothing more to prove to anyone after winning the title in '81 & '82. As he has himself admitted, he was burnt out from speedway by the end of '82 and ready for a new challenge - he wouldn't have been up for another crack at it in a German field.

 

but when the chips were really down, did he really believe in himself, despite all the outward bluster? Carter won so little - there has to be a reason for that.

 

 

Rob,

 

Carter believed in himself like no other, to the point where it became self-destructive. It was his failure sometimes to accept that he couldn't do the impossible that rebounded on him so spectacularly.

 

I don't know how you can conclude that he won so little. Apart from the 'Big One', he won the next most important and prestigious individual titles in the form of the British Championship (twice - once when massively handicapped by a broken leg) and the BLRC (twice). He also won the World Pairs with PC and came very close to winning it again with Tatum in '85 before an inspired piece of brilliance by Gundersen denied them.

[fatface]

Falcace, since when has the Golden Gauntlets (not even sure which track staged it!!) been regarded as a big meeting? And Olsen's Farewell was a testimonial. You seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to find meetings that Carter won.

I was decent enough to admit I was nitpicking there in terms of 1983. I just didn't want it cast aside that he won nothing individually that year..as you had suggested. Look, I'm no big Carter fan. I just want fair recognition for the rider he was, despite his undoubted flaws as a human being. People can argue that he would never have won the World Title anyway, even if that tragic night in 86 never occurred and they have a solid case. But when I hear terms like "second rate" and "defeatist" used alongside his name, I simply cannot let that pass. Whenever there are discussions amongst speedway fans of the best riders never to have won the World Final, his name is invariably one of the first to be mentioned.

 

ps. Golden Gauntlets - Leicester; Blue Riband - Poole; Golden Hammer - Cradley; 16 lapper - Ipswich; Brandonapolis - Coventry (doubled as Olsen's farewell in 83). I thought most people knew these..maybe I'm more of a nerd than I thought?!

Edited December 2, 2009 by falcace

[lucifer sam]

ps. Golden Gauntlets - Leicester; Blue Riband - Poole; Golden Hammer - Cradley; 16 lapper - Ipswich; Brandonapolis - Coventry (doubled as Olsen's farewell in 83). I thought most people knew these..maybe I'm more of a nerd than I thought?!

 

Falcace, thanks, I know the rest but remember Leicester closed at the end of 1983 and Oxford didn't move BL until 1984. I'm normally a bit of a nerd too (as seen previously on this thread when I reeled off the five major championships that Carter did win from memory) but there was a slight gap in my knowledge there.

 

All the best

Rob

 

Rob,

 

Carter believed in himself like no other, to the point where it became self-destructive. It was his failure sometimes to accept that he couldn't do the impossible that rebounded on him so spectacularly.

 

I don't know how you can conclude that he won so little. Apart from the 'Big One', he won the next most important and prestigious individual titles in the form of the British Championship (twice - once when massively handicapped by a broken leg) and the BLRC (twice). He also won the World Pairs with PC and came very close to winning it again with Tatum in '85 before an inspired piece of brilliance by Gundersen denied them.

 

Tony,

 

But apart from one World Pairs, it's all at a British domestic level. On the international stage, Carter won just one FIM inscribed meeting (the British rounds of the World Championship do not fall under the juridstiction of the FIM).

 

Michael Lee was anoher British rider who burnt himself out too early and yet he won the following on the international stage:

 

World Champion (1980) plus two more on the rostrum in 1979 & 1983

World Longtrack Champion (1981)

World Team Cup Champion (1977 & 1980)

Inter-Continental Champion (1979)

Commonwealth Champion (1979)

 

Six international wins to Carter's one.

 

For some reason, Kenny Carter did underachieve when it came to the highest level. I'm still not sure if constantly telling people how much you believe in yourself is the same as actually believing it. Penhall was so driven to win and yet we rarely heard him saying this. He just got on and did the job.

 

Penhall was one of the highest profile speedway riders of all-time. Hey he even got onto TISWAS and raced Chris Tarrant (Penhall on a tricycle, Tarrant on a Speedway bike, Tarrant was leading but fell off and Penhall won) which I considered fantastically cool at the age of 8. But there was little "I'm the best" bluster from Penhall when he faced the media - there didn't need to be, because he was the best.

 

Penhall hated losing - as the tears at the 1980 World Final proved. But he didn't need to tell us - we just knew. It makes me wonder if Carter's outward bluster was a front and whether that self-belief was actually quite fragile. This would explain why he faded during World Finals - his self-belief went missing at a crucial time.

 

But, as you've already said Tony, what this thread is proved is impact that Kenny Carter had on British Speedway. He was a guy who could get onto the back page of the tabloids. And now we're still arguing about him two than decades onwards. There probably won't be a character quite like Kenny Carter in speedway again. He was a one-off. Which is just as well really.

 

All the best

Rob