Kenny Carter Book

[kaiser]

I'd rank him and Shaun Moran as the two best riders of the 80s not to have won the world title.

 

Totally agree, would probably put Sigalos in there as well(very unlucky with injuries ). Kennys big chance was oviously in 82, and in my view the HOT DOG STAND decision could have really gone either way, maybe it helped Bruce that it was in the usa. Although ive always thought Carter should have won it in the 83 final, which was probably a more open even field, added that he was probably one of the more experienced riders in that final aswell. You do have to question some of Carters mental strength in finals, where he always started the meetings on fire but ultimately tailed off. Think im right that in all the 81,82,83 finals he actually lead the field at the interval!!!

[lucifer sam]

Totally agree, would probably put Sigalos in there as well(very unlucky with injuries ). Kennys big chance was oviously in 82, and in my view the HOT DOG STAND decision could have really gone either way, maybe it helped Bruce that it was in the usa. Although ive always thought Carter should have won it in the 83 final, which was probably a more open even field, added that he was probably one of the more experienced riders in that final aswell. You do have to question some of Carters mental strength in finals, where he always started the meetings on fire but ultimately tailed off. Think im right that in all the 81,82,83 finals he actually lead the field at the interval!!!

 

Carter's World Final record:

1981: 3-2-3-R-3 11pts (2nd at interval - finished 4th=)

1982: 3-3-3-FX-1 10pts (1st at interval - finished 5th)

1983: 2-3-3-1-1 10pts (2nd at interval - finished 4th=)

 

27 points out of 29 before the interval (93% of points available).

6 points out of 18 after the interval (just 33% of points available).

 

I would place Sigalos as a better rider than either Carter or Shawn Moran. He's possibly the one rider who may have been able to do something about the Danish domination of the later half of the 80s, but for that dreadful injury in the 1984 American Final (although, having said that, Siggy was struggling to qualify from the 1984 American Final when his accident struck).

 

And I agree - the 1983 World Final was there for the taking and Carter didn't take his chance. Look at how other some other riders reacted to World Championship heartache. Nielsen in 1986 after finishing second in 1984 & 1985. Crump in 2004 after being pipped at the post in 2003. Pedersen in 1991 after missing 1989 & 1990 through injury. Etc, etc. They all came back bigger and stronger and won the elusive title they so craved. Carter wasn't able to do that.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited November 30, 2009 by lucifer sam

[kaiser]

Carter's World Final record:

1981: 3-2-3-R-3 11pts (2nd at interval - finished 4th=)

1982: 3-3-3-FX-1 10pts (1st at interval - finished 5th)

1983: 2-3-3-1-1 10pts (2nd at interval - finished 4th=)

 

27 points out of 29 before the interval (93% of points available).

6 points out of 18 after the interval (just 33% of points available).

 

All the best

Rob

 

 

Cheers Rob, indeed the contrast is really quite ridiculous. Granted he broke down in his 4th ride in 81 (although i dont think he was leading anyway). It clearly shows a total lack of consistancy. Or dare i say it, his win or bust attitude, i suspect Kenny wasnt interested once he knew he couldnt win the meeting, 2nd or 3rd place was of little significance to him. As demonstrated by his 5th rides at LA and Norden, when he still had a chance of a rostrum place. Must say i got a lot of pleasure and entertainment watching Kenny (booing him at BV!!well i was only a kid ). He was a character, and people who liked him or not, always wanted to watch him race.

[fatface]

Cheers Rob, indeed the contrast is really quite ridiculous. Granted he broke down in his 4th ride in 81 (although i dont think he was leading anyway). It clearly shows a total lack of consistancy. Or dare i say it, his win or bust attitude, i suspect Kenny wasnt interested once he knew he couldnt win the meeting, 2nd or 3rd place was of little significance to him. As demonstrated by his 5th rides at LA and Norden, when he still had a chance of a rostrum place. Must say i got a lot of pleasure and entertainment watching Kenny (booing him at BV!!well i was only a kid ). He was a character, and people who liked him or not, always wanted to watch him race.

You're talking a lot of sense Kaiser. Think Kenny might have been 2nd when packing up in 81 and certainly post-Penhall, he wasn't really interested in his 5th ride in LA. So that kind of puts it into context. He wasn't a rider who ever really got much from just making the podium. I think in 83 we definitely saw a subdued Carter. As Tony Mac's fine book illustrates, he took his eye off the ball a bit, focussing more on his business interests. Having said that there was only one rider who was ever going to win the title in 83 and as Kenny amusingly told the ITV interviewer: "Keep yer cameras on that bike!"

[kaiser]

You're talking a lot of sense Kaiser.

 

Dont worry Falcace, im not likely to make a habbit of it!!!!!

 

[lucifer sam]

Cheers Rob, indeed the contrast is really quite ridiculous. Granted he broke down in his 4th ride in 81 (although i dont think he was leading anyway). It clearly shows a total lack of consistancy. Or dare i say it, his win or bust attitude, i suspect Kenny wasnt interested once he knew he couldnt win the meeting, 2nd or 3rd place was of little significance to him. As demonstrated by his 5th rides at LA and Norden, when he still had a chance of a rostrum place. Must say i got a lot of pleasure and entertainment watching Kenny (booing him at BV!!well i was only a kid ). He was a character, and people who liked him or not, always wanted to watch him race.

 

Kaiser, it doesn't really explain what happened at Norden after the interval though, does it? Had Carter gone out and won his final two rides, all he needed was for one rider to beat Muller to force a run-off. And had Nielsen not suffered an e/f whilst leading Muller, then that would have happened.

 

All the best

Rob

 

 

[liverpool chad]

I was an Aces regular from 81-87 and have to say Kenny was the best of any visiting rider round Hyde Rd, only Gundersen would come close. I can't remember Kenny ever dropping more than a point in a league meeting and pretty sure the 81 & 82 BLRC were the only two he compteted in (scoring a maximum in both). I also saw him a number of times at the Shay and Odsal where he was equally dominant.

I'd rank him and Shaun Moran as the two best riders of the 80s not to have won the world title.

 

He also rode in the BLRC in 1980 scoring something like 9 points and stopped in one race whilst leading because he said he saw a chequerd flag being waved after the third lap and thought that the race was over . He rode again after his two very accomplished victorys in 1983 but finished down the score-chart.

I must concede that he was very good around hyde road during his somewhat short career, but would still only just make my top twenty visiting riders around the famous track.

 

On the other hand i can recall Peter Collins running rings around him at the shay in meetings in 1980 and 1982 and also remember alan grahame and phil collins getting lots of 5-1's against him at the shay when Cradley visited. So as dominant as he was around Belle Vue there are always riders who will go to certain tracks and regularly beat the home teams heat leaders.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Phil Crump and Martin Ashby would've eaten Carter for breakfast in their prime!

 

As would John Louis...

'Tiger' was in a totally different class at his peak to Carter..

I agree with Rob that Carter would never have won a World title...

[liverpool chad]

As would John Louis...

'Tiger' was in a totally different class at his peak to Carter..

I agree with Rob that Carter would never have won a World title...

 

From 75 up to 79 John Louis was outstanding both individually and in the way he led Ipswich in the league and its my opinion that this made him a far more talented rider than Carter, and handled the big occasion better than Carter as did so many other British riders of that time.

Don't get me wrong im no Carter hater but i just don't think he was as good as some people make out, and also think he could be extremely dangerous if things did not go his way! Yes he was a good heat leader from 1981-1984 but for me thats pretty poor as top heat leaders stay at the top for 10 or more years and good ones for 7 or 8 years. Carter was in decline from the mid 84 season up to his sad end. And got nowhere near being a world individual champion, after the british final victorys i don't think he won a round when the americans, australians and continentals joined the mix.

[TonyMac]

he was a good heat leader from 1981-1984 but for me thats pretty poor as top heat leaders stay at the top for 10 or more years and good ones for 7 or 8 years. Carter was in decline from the mid 84 season up to his sad end. And got nowhere near being a world individual champion, after the british final victorys

 

 

What, declined as in he 'only' won the 1985 British Championship in emphatic style.

 

Halifax fans will confirm just how much of an outstanding No.1 rider he was for them - invariably a one-man team away from The Shay - or "me and six w*****s" in Kenny's own words! Of course, he didn't do much of note after May '86.

 

Carter fans will also argue that he was one refereeing decision away from winning the world title in '82 and was nailed on to win it at Odsal, in his own backyard, in '85 before the rain of Vetlanda intervened.

Edited November 30, 2009 by tmc

[liverpool chad]

What, declined as in he 'only' won the 1985 British Championship in emphatic style.

 

Halifax fans will confirm just how much of an outstanding No.1 rider he was for them - invariably a one-man team away from The Shay - or "me and six w*****s" in Kenny's own words! Of course, he didn't do much of note after May '86.

 

Carter fans will also argue that he was one refereeing decision away from winning the world title in '82 and was nailed on to win it at Odsal, in his own backyard, in '85 before the rain of Vetlanda intervened.

 

Or you could argue that the Carter-Penhall incident stopped Les Collins from being crowned world champion in 82 as neither rider would of caught Peter Collins in that race had one not hit the deck. And when you see the TV replays Carter had an option of shutting off and trying to cut back up the inside before being taken out too wide by Penhall, (who incidentally made no contact with Carter on that bend) and had the drive down the straight and passed Penhall there. But as i have posted elsewhere IMO Carter did not possess that kind of natural racing instinct as say Peter Collins or Ole Olsen who himself made such a move on Egon Muller in a world final and cut inside to win on the line at ullevi.

And as for being nailed on champion in 85 at "Odslum" is'nt that the same venue in the same season that the very same Kenny Carter needed a last race win to qualify for the next round? As i said before Never a world champion in the making in a month of Sundays. as they say in Yorkshire!

[waihekerich]

And as for being nailed on champion in 85 at "Odslum" is'nt that the same venue in the same season that the very same Kenny Carter needed a last race win to qualify for the next round? As i said before Never a world champion in the making in a month of Sundays. as they say in Yorkshire!

 

No, the qualifying round in 85 was the Overseas final, where he finished runner up to Shaun Moran after a run-off (you're thinking of the British semi final in 86 where Kenny had to win his last two races to qualify- the last world individual qualifier he would ride in.) Of course you can't say he would definitely have won the final at Odsal, but he would have had a damn good chance. He was in pretty good form in 85 - British Champ, 2nd in Overseas final, 2nd in world Pairs final dropping only 1 point, and averaging over 10 for Halifax in all meetings).

 

Re: the 82 incident - I reckon the ref excluded the right man. Though the better option would have been to let the race go, or even award the points as the race stood as there is no way Bruce would have caught PC.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Of course, he didn't do much of note after May '86.

 

Bloody hell, Tony...: that's in unbelievably bad taste...

 

[Jez]

And as for being nailed on champion in 85 at "Odslum" is'nt that the same venue in the same season that the very same Kenny Carter needed a last race win to qualify for the next round?

 

Think you might find out there was a few outside influences on that Sunday afternoon in the British Semi Final at Odsal that affected KC's performance as it was only a few days later when the awful incident took place, so I would take that result with a pince of salt

 

Everyone has their opinion of Kenny as a rider, in my eyes as a kid when he was riding he was brilliant, in those days we all have our heroes and villians on the track, as for if he was World Champion material or not after his last final apperancen in 83 in Norden who knows what could have happened from the 1986 final onwards.

 

Anyway if you've not already read the book, buy in and give it a go, Tony has done a great job and it's a brilliant read for speedway fans.

 

[liverpool chad]

No, the qualifying round in 85 was the Overseas final, where he finished runner up to Shaun Moran after a run-off (you're thinking of the British semi final in 86 where Kenny had to win his last two races to qualify- the last world individual qualifier he would ride in.) Of course you can't say he would definitely have won the final at Odsal, but he would have had a damn good chance. He was in pretty good form in 85 - British Champ, 2nd in Overseas final, 2nd in world Pairs final dropping only 1 point, and averaging over 10 for Halifax in all meetings).

 

Re: the 82 incident - I reckon the ref excluded the right man. Though the better option would have been to let the race go, or even award the points as the race stood as there is no way Bruce would have caught PC.

 

Ah yes you are quite right it was 86 that he had to win his last race, i stand corrected. But i still feel he was never good enough to be world champion even in his own backyard.

Going back to the LA final, then yes had the race been awarded then Les Collins would surely of been crowned champion if he could of held on to his nerve.

[lucifer sam]

What, declined as in he 'only' won the 1985 British Championship in emphatic style.

 

Halifax fans will confirm just how much of an outstanding No.1 rider he was for them - invariably a one-man team away from The Shay - or "me and six w*****s" in Kenny's own words! Of course, he didn't do much of note after May '86.

 

Carter fans will also argue that he was one refereeing decision away from winning the world title in '82 and was nailed on to win it at Odsal, in his own backyard, in '85 before the rain of Vetlanda intervened.

 

Tony, but Carter never won a single international round of the World Championship. Not even a single one. During the 1981-1983 period (Carter's prime), British riders who won an international round of the World Championship were: Dave Jessup, Les Collins & Phil Collins. And British riders who finished on the rostrum in a World Final were Les Collins (1982) and Michael Lee (1983).

 

As for Carter being "nailed on" to win at Odsal in 85, was he really? How come he only finished second in the Overseas Final, then? And this was in a meeting lacking the Danes. Shawn Moran, who beat Carter in the Overseas Final, scored 10 points in the World Final. Would Carter have got any more? Remember the Yanks also had Carter's measure in the World Pairs semi-final held at Bradford in 1985. And the Danes proved there were even better around the Odsal bowl during the 1985 World Final. Would Carter have beaten Gundersen and Nielsen? I very much doubt it.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited November 30, 2009 by lucifer sam

[TonyMac]

I wouldn't put too much store by who won individual qualifying rounds along the way to the final - except, perhaps, the most meaningful British Finals of the 70s and 80s when the meeting carried real prestige and the main men genuinely cared about winning it. Winning the BF brought more kudos than the Overseas/Commonwealth finals and even the Inter-Continental final.

 

Ivan Mauger could have won the ICF at White City in '79 but admitted that he deliberately threw his last race (after proving a point by leading Finn Thomsen all the way to the last bend) to ensure a more favourable span of races in the final at Katowice - and it worked!

 

Winning the world final itself required qualities not necessary in qualifiers that, for most, were all about getting through to the next round.

 

We will, of course, never know what Carter would have done had broken legs not stopped him from reaching the finals of '84 and '85 but he would surely have been a major contender and a rider feared by all.

 

 

[lucifer sam]

Ivan Mauger could have won the ICF at White City in '79 but admitted that he deliberately threw his last race (after proving a point by leading Finn Thomsen all the way to the last bend) to ensure a more favourable span of races in the final at Katowice - and it worked!

 

Tony, didn't Ivan throw the run-off for third place? Michael Lee won the 1979 Inter-Continental Final meeting fair and square.

 

The British Final was prestigious at this time, but remember Peter Collins didn't mind giving the meeting a miss in 1977.

 

As for the 1984 and 1985 World Finals, of course we'll never know, but I don't feel Carter would have finished on the rostrum in either meeting. He'd failed to finish in the top three in a very open 1983 World Final and the '84/'85 meetings were, IMO, tougher meetings. Other riders were emerging by this time, whilst Carter was slipping backwards. His peak was 1982.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited November 30, 2009 by lucifer sam

[fatface]

I wouldn't put too much store by who won individual qualifying rounds along the way to the final - except, perhaps, the most meaningful British Finals of the 70s and 80s when the meeting carried real prestige and the main men genuinely cared about winning it. Winning the BF brought more kudos than the Overseas/Commonwealth finals and even the Inter-Continental final.

 

Ivan Mauger could have won the ICF at White City in '79 but admitted that he deliberately threw his last race (after proving a point by leading Finn Thomsen all the way to the last bend) to ensure a more favourable span of races in the final at Katowice - and it worked!

 

Winning the world final itself required qualities not necessary in qualifiers that, for most, were all about getting through to the next round.

 

We will, of course, never know what Carter would have done had broken legs not stopped him from reaching the finals of '84 and '85 but he would surely have been a major contender and a rider feared by all.

Utterly agree with you Tony. British Champion was a seriously coveted title at one time, only behind the World Final and - possibly - the BLRC in terms of prestige. The Overseas and Intercontinentals were by and large - qualifying rounds. Nice to win, but not the be all and end all.

 

Although his career was all too brief, there were periods of time when Kenny Carter was just about the best rider in the world. With all the will in the world, I'm really not sure the same could ever be said for guys like John Louis, Martin Ashby and Phil Crump all of whom enjoyed long, relatively untroubled careers. Even though Crumpy and Tiger made it to the World Final podium, neither ever looked like they might win those respective finals.

 

From 75 up to 79 John Louis was outstanding both individually and in the way he led Ipswich in the league and its my opinion that this made him a far more talented rider than Carter, and handled the big occasion better than Carter as did so many other British riders of that time.

How come he didn't qualify for the 77, 78 or 79 World Finals? Did he have injury problems?

 

On the other hand i can recall Peter Collins running rings around him at the shay in meetings in 1980 and 1982 and also remember alan grahame and phil collins getting lots of 5-1's against him at the shay when Cradley visited. So as dominant as he was around Belle Vue there are always riders who will go to certain tracks and regularly beat the home teams heat leaders.

That's simply not true. I'm an Aces fan and went to the Shay for every Dukes v Aces match from 81-85 and only saw PC beat him once...83 would be my guess. He gated and held on grimly. Great ride it was too. Mort never beat him there..and god knows I wanted him to! if you have eveidence of PC or Phil Collins and Alan Grahame regularly beating him, then by all means bring it to the fore.

 

the 1983 World Final was there for the taking and Carter didn't take his chance.

 

Was it? I was there and it was pretty obvious after the first couple of races that it was nailed on. Kenny himself summed it up perfectly for ITV: "Ole Olsen's one of the fastest riders in the world and e's just got passed him like he's dropped a chain. He's makin us all look stooopid! Get yer cameras on that bike." If Muller had needed to pass Nielsen in his last ride that day, he would have done that too. He had the say on track conditions - totally different from practice to race day. He was also riding one of the first super-tuned GMs, whilst everyone else was on Weslakes, Jawas, Goddens. To borrow another Kenny phrase, the rest of the field had "nooooooo chance!"

 

ps. note to Grachan...one day, I promise I'll stop banging on about this final. Honest :-)

[TonyMac]

Tony, didn't Ivan throw the run-off for third place? Michael Lee won the 1979 Inter-Continental Final meeting fair and square.

 

Take your word for it, Rob, but you get my point.

 

 

The British Final was prestigious at this time, but remember Peter Collins didn't mind giving the meeting a miss in 1977.

Well, the BF was such a cut-throat meeting, who wouldn't have turned down automatic seeding to the ICF that year?

 

 

As for the 1984 and 1985 World Finals, of course we'll never know, but I don't feel Carter would have finished on the rostrum in either meeting. He'd failed to finish in the top three in a very open 1983 World Final and the '84/'85 meetings were, IMO, tougher meetings. Other riders were emerging by this time, whilst Carter was slipping backwards. His peak was 1982.

 

mmm...'83 very open? Like Falcace, I thought everything about Norden was tailor-made for one man only...

 

Don't know about '82 being KC's peak. Still think he would have been very difficult to stop at Bradford in '85, after the way he demolished the rest in the BF at Coventry.

 

All said and done, it says a lot about the impact Carter had on us and the sport itself that so many words are still being spoken and written about him today.

Edited December 1, 2009 by tmc