Kenny Carter Book

[sheffieldscot]

He still didn't win much during those three years though.

 

All the best

Rob

 

I am sure that he would have won an awful lot more

[fatface]

Hmmmm...

BLRC winner (1981 & 1982)

British Champion (1984 & 1985)

World Pairs Champion (1983)

 

And that's about it. There's a lot, lot of other riders who have won far more than that, including several Brits from around Carter's era (Peter Collins, Michael Lee, Simon Wigg, etc). Blimey, even Kelvin Tatum won more big time events than Kenny Carter.

 

All the best

Rob

When you list his achievements like that, then no, it doesn't seem like a lot. But I think you had to be watching the sport at that time to truly appreciate the rider he was. The titles you've listed above didn't come easy to anyone during that era. PC only won the British Final once and Mike Lee never won the BLRC. The latter in particular was a tough, tough meeting with serious prestige. Kenny was superb in winning that, especially in 1981.

 

But I don't think he can be defined statistically. I know that as a young Belle Vue fan he was the opposition rider you always feared most, more so than Penhall, Lee, Olsen, Gundersen etc. Not many could come to Hyde Road beat Mort and PC and race to a maximum. He could. He was cocky, arrogant, selfish, but most of all, just a brilliantly talented racer. I don't think it's just Aces fans that felt that way either.

[cityrebel]

i never really liked carter as a rider but no one could doubt his commitment when wearing an england race jacket.

[chunky]

i never really liked carter as a rider but no one could doubt his commitment when wearing an england race jacket.

 

I agree. Honestly, I was really no fan of his, but nobody could - or should - argue about his ability. He did suffer from injury and bad luck, but even so, he was an incredible rider.

 

To be fair, I never saw Jason Crump as a World Champion, due to his temperament as a young man. However, he matured, and showed us what he can really do. Sadly, Kenny Carter never gave himself the opportunity to do the same.

 

Steve

[lucifer sam]

i never really liked carter as a rider but no one could doubt his commitment when wearing an england race jacket.

 

Unfortunately it only applied wearing an England racejacket in individual competitions, though. I remember two very contrasting performances from Carter at Oxford in big meetings.

 

One came in 1984, when he rode through the pain barrier to finish third in 11 points in the British Semi-Final, his first meeting since his broken leg. He even got back up after a fall in one race. Very brave and courageous performance.

 

The following year saw an Engand v Denmark test match at Oxford. A fully fit Carter simply couldn't be bothered and scored just one point for his country.

 

All the best

Rob

 

 

 

[lucifer sam]

When you list his achievements like that, then no, it doesn't seem like a lot. But I think you had to be watching the sport at that time to truly appreciate the rider he was. The titles you've listed above didn't come easy to anyone during that era. PC only won the British Final once and Mike Lee never won the BLRC. The latter in particular was a tough, tough meeting with serious prestige. Kenny was superb in winning that, especially in 1981.

 

But I don't think he can be defined statistically. I know that as a young Belle Vue fan he was the opposition rider you always feared most, more so than Penhall, Lee, Olsen, Gundersen etc. Not many could come to Hyde Road beat Mort and PC and race to a maximum. He could. He was cocky, arrogant, selfish, but most of all, just a brilliantly talented racer. I don't think it's just Aces fans that felt that way either.

 

Falcace, I was watching the sport at the time.

 

And Carter was a huge talent - but also had a huge ego, a nasty temperament and was not a team man at all. I didn't like Carter from the 1981 Overseas Final onwards, when his and Penhall's bike locked together and he acted like a spoilt brat, accusing Penhall of deliberately knocking him off.

 

I'm glad he didn't win more - he didn't deserve to.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[liverpool chad]

When you list his achievements like that, then no, it doesn't seem like a lot. But I think you had to be watching the sport at that time to truly appreciate the rider he was. The titles you've listed above didn't come easy to anyone during that era. PC only won the British Final once and Mike Lee never won the BLRC. The latter in particular was a tough, tough meeting with serious prestige. Kenny was superb in winning that, especially in 1981.

 

But I don't think he can be defined statistically. I know that as a young Belle Vue fan he was the opposition rider you always feared most, more so than Penhall, Lee, Olsen, Gundersen etc. Not many could come to Hyde Road beat Mort and PC and race to a maximum. He could. He was cocky, arrogant, selfish, but most of all, just a brilliantly talented racer. I don't think it's just Aces fans that felt that way either.

 

Peter Collins was never going to win many British Finals at the "gaters paradice" that was brandon in the 1970's. but don't forget that Collins won the likes of, European finals, intercontinental finals, tons of open meetings, was world champion in '76 runner up in '77(IMO a greater achievement than winning it) won the world masters series in '78 and held on to the golden helmet for almost two years! and was far more exciting to watch than Kenny Carter was.

And on the subject of someone coming to Belle Vue and beating Morton, Collins etc, Then there are lots of riders who came and did just that, Phil Crump on a number of occasions, Martin Ashby, Ivan Mauger, Ole Olsen, John Louis.

I'm sure as a regular at Hyde Road in the seventy's and eighty's, if my memory serves me right most Belle Vue patron's feared Olsen far more than anyone and Carter would be further down the list. Carters liking for the Hyde Road track stemmed from his association with the great Ivan Mauger. From the off season in 1980 until their parting of the ways at the end of 1982 Carter spent almost the entire closed season practicing around belle vue and a lot of the time during the season aswell testing motors. He probably rode more laps around belle vue than anyone else! But putting all the greats ive seen around belle vue at there peak Kenny Carter would possibly only just get in my top twenty.

[fatface]

Falcace, I was watching the sport at the time.

 

And Carter was a huge talent - but also had a huge ego, a nasty temperament and was not a team man at all. I didn't like Carter from the 1981 Overseas Final onwards, when his and Penhall's bike locked together and he acted like a spoilt brat, accusing Penhall of deliberately knocking him off.

 

I'm glad he didn't win more - he didn't deserve to.

 

All the best

Rob

Easy tiger! I'm not having a dig at anyone. All the very best to you too Rob :-)

 

I'm just saying that around that 81/82 time in particular, Carter was a truly awesome rider. For every promoter he was a "must have" rider at their big annual individual meeting. Meetings that he very often won. Anyone who describes him as "second-rate" clearly did not fully appreciate this guy in his pomp, because he was superb. It'd be like me saying someone like Jack Parker was second rate.

 

As a footnote, from what I've seen of the 81 Overseas, it's difficult to come to any other conclusion than that Penhall did dump Carter in the fence. But, I'm not going to let personal opinions of either rider get in the way. To be honest, I'm fairly negative towards both, but as a rider Carter was top notch, capable of going to any track and beating any rider.

Edited November 29, 2009 by falcace

[fatface]

Peter Collins was never going to win many British Finals at the "gaters paradice" that was brandon in the 1970's. but don't forget that Collins won the likes of, European finals, intercontinental finals, tons of open meetings, was world champion in '76 runner up in '77(IMO a greater achievement than winning it) won the world masters series in '78 and held on to the golden helmet for almost two years! and was far more exciting to watch than Kenny Carter was.

And on the subject of someone coming to Belle Vue and beating Morton, Collins etc, Then there are lots of riders who came and did just that, Phil Crump on a number of occasions, Martin Ashby, Ivan Mauger, Ole Olsen, John Louis.

I'm sure as a regular at Hyde Road in the seventy's and eighty's, if my memory serves me right most Belle Vue patron's feared Olsen far more than anyone and Carter would be further down the list. Carters liking for the Hyde Road track stemmed from his association with the great Ivan Mauger. From the off season in 1980 until their parting of the ways at the end of 1982 Carter spent almost the entire closed season practicing around belle vue and a lot of the time during the season aswell testing motors. He probably rode more laps around belle vue than anyone else! But putting all the greats ive seen around belle vue at there peak Kenny Carter would possibly only just get in my top twenty.

I wasn't saying Carter was better than PC. Just said that the British Final was bloody hard to win at one time and the great PC winning it only once illustrates that perfectly. As for the rest, well, it's all opinions. If you want to say Ole Olsen was a better rider than Carter you have a fair old case, but Ashby, Crump and Louis. Hmmm, that's dubious.

[lucifer sam]

Easy tiger! I'm not having a dig at anyone. All the very best to you too Rob :-)

 

I'm just saying that around that 81/82 time in particular, Carter was a truly awesome rider. For every promoter he was a "must have" rider at their big annual individual meeting. Meetings that he very often won. Anyone who describes him as "second-rate" clearly did not fully appreciate this guy in his pomp, because he was superb. It'd be like me saying someone like Jack Parker was second rate.

 

As a footnote, from what I've seen of the 81 Overseas, it's difficult to come to any other conclusion than that Penhall did dump Carter in the fence. But, I'm not going to let personal opinions of either rider get in the way. To be honest, I'm fairly negative towards both, but as a rider Carter was top notch, capable of going to any track and beating any rider.

 

Falcace, I wasn't taking it as a personal dig, it's just that I never liked Kenny Carter and never will. I read the book, and it's clear that he had a tough time of it, but it's still no excuse to turn out the way he did.

 

Carter was the best rider in the British League in 1982. However, the fact he never won an individual international round of the World Championship (by the end of 1983, many of his rivals had, but he hadn't) or finished on the World Final rostrum is telling. Despite his talent, there seems to be a limit to what he could win - probably coming from inside his head. Carter seemed to be very good at beating himself.

 

Looking af Carter's list of major honours, four of them came in this country, two British Finals and two BLRCs. Only one came outside the country - the 1983 World Pairs. And that was a lucky win. Australia were the best pair that day, but lost points, while England received some gift points.

 

I don't subscribe to any of the romantic ideals about Kenny Carter - that he would have eventually had won the World Championship had he not wiped out life and that of his wife. He wouldn't. His career had been on the slide since the beginning of the 1983 season - I couldn't believe how bad he was in the England v Denmark test match at Oxford in 1985. His hopes of becoming World Champion disappeared the day he lost his cool in the race against Penhall in LA.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited November 29, 2009 by lucifer sam

[fatface]

Falcace, I wasn't taking it as a personal dig, it's just that I never liked Kenny Carter and never will. I read the book, and it's clear that he had a tough time of it, but it's still no excuse to turn out the way he did.

 

Carter was the best rider in the British League in 1982. However, the fact he never won an individual international round of the World Championship (by the end of 1983, many of his rivals had, but he hadn't) or finished on the World Final rostrum is telling. Despite his talent, there seems to be a limit to what he could win - probably coming from inside his head. Carter seemed to be very good at beating himself.

 

Looking af Carter's list of major honours, four of them came in this country, two British Finals and two BLRCs. Only one came outside the country - the 1983 World Pairs. And that was a lucky win. Australia were the best pair that day, but lost points, while England received some gift points.

 

I don't subscribe to any of the romantic ideals about Kenny Carter - that he would have eventually had won the World Championship had he not wiped out life and that of his wife. He wouldn't. His career had been on the slide since the beginning of the 1983 season - I couldn't believe how bad he was in the England v Denmark test match at Oxford in 1985. His hopes of becoming World Champion disappeared the day he lost his cool in the race against Penhall in LA.

 

All the best

Rob

And therein lies the difference. I didn't like him much either and am certainly not romantic about him, but I'm not going to let that cloud my judgement. It seems odd to cherry-pick things like an 85 England Denmark test match as a key indicator. It'd be fairer to look at his overall test record against the Danes and - particularly the Yanks in 81, 82, 83 and 84 as well. Overall you will find he was England's top man, including three 17 point totals. Without doing the number crunching I think you will also find he was England top man in the World Team Cup from 81-85 too. In World Finals, he certainly would have made rostrums where it not for circumstance. 81's engine failure could be construed as very unlucky, it was a rare occurence for him and he even had Mauger with him. 82, well, it's a can or worms isn't it? I say he was robbed, thousands would agree, thousands would disagree. The vast majority would concede he was at least one of the top three riders in the world at the time and on the night as well. Though it's probably for the best that he didn't push for a rostrum placing after his fourth ride. It could've been the first time a fight would have broken out on the World Final podium

[liverpool chad]

I wasn't saying Carter was better than PC. Just said that the British Final was bloody hard to win at one time and the great PC winning it only once illustrates that perfectly. As for the rest, well, it's all opinions. If you want to say Ole Olsen was a better rider than Carter you have a fair old case, but Ashby, Crump and Louis. Hmmm, that's dubious.

 

I was not saying that those riders were better than Carter, just that they would come to Belle Vue and regularly beat Collins, Sjosten, Willkinson and Morton.

Phil Crump and Martin Ashby would've eaten Carter for breakfast in their prime! Did you ever see either from 74-78? they were both outstanding and could pass people inside or outside anytime any race any opposition any track!

[kaiser]

I first watched Kenny Carter around 1982, pretty sure it was the BLRC which he won. Carter was really the only reason to bother watching Halifax, who by and large always got smashed at Hyde road in the 80s. He was an unbelievable speedway rider, who could pass or trap when he needed too. Oviously he had issues in his private life, which ultimately led to his downfall. As a person Carter was both selfish and weak in what he did, but nobody should doubt his ability as a speedway rider. Englands best rider of the 80s?? Yeah probably....

[liverpool chad]

I first watched Kenny Carter around 1982, pretty sure it was the BLRC which he won. Carter was really the only reason to bother watching Halifax, who by and large always got smashed at Hyde road in the 80s. He was an unbelievable speedway rider, who could pass or trap when he needed too. Oviously he had issues in his private life, which ultimately led to his downfall. As a person Carter was both selfish and weak in what he did, but nobody should doubt his ability as a speedway rider. Englands best rider of the 80s?? Yeah probably....

 

YOU COULD COUNT ON THE FINGERS OF ONE HAND THE TIMES CARTER CAME FROM THE BACK, AND MOST OF THEM HE JUST RODE STRAIGHT THROUGH WHOEVER WAS IN FRONT OF HIM !

NO BRAIN AT ALL.

[kaiser]

YOU COULD COUNT ON THE FINGERS OF ONE HAND THE TIMES CARTER CAME FROM THE BACK, AND MOST OF THEM HE JUST RODE STRAIGHT THROUGH WHOEVER WAS IN FRONT OF HIM !

NO BRAIN AT ALL.

 

Oh, like the 84 British final, when he passed PC and Les in the rain (with a broken leg!!!). I was never a huge Carter fan, but he could pass, he wasnt just a trapper!!! Unlike certain Danes a la Nielsen and Knudsen

[liverpool chad]

Oh, like the 84 British final, when he passed PC and Les in the rain (with a broken leg!!!). I was never a huge Carter fan, but he could pass, he wasnt just a trapper!!! Unlike certain Danes a la Nielsen and Knudsen

 

LIKE I SAID YOU CAN COUNT THE TIMES HE PASSED ANYONE ON THE FINGERS OF ONE HAND!

And on the subject of the 1984 British final, that meeting was a farce. Some quality riders went out because Carter wanted to ride when 14 of the 16 riders did'nt. And England ended up with one rider in Gothenburg for the final because so many weak riders qualified from that farce of a British final. Carter ended up winning one of the easiest British finals that we have ever seen because of his pigheaded attitude. A very hollow victory IMO.

[fatface]

YOU COULD COUNT ON THE FINGERS OF ONE HAND THE TIMES CARTER CAME FROM THE BACK, AND MOST OF THEM HE JUST RODE STRAIGHT THROUGH WHOEVER WAS IN FRONT OF HIM !

NO BRAIN AT ALL.

 

Here's some to be getting on with. Keep the second hand ready...better have your toes poised too :-)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX_j9dPszRE

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oqi7bQXwqs

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdMcOAtGNmM

 

Edited November 30, 2009 by falcace

[lucifer sam]

Oh, like the 84 British final, when he passed PC and Les in the rain (with a broken leg!!!). I was never a huge Carter fan, but he could pass, he wasnt just a trapper!!! Unlike certain Danes a la Nielsen and Knudsen

 

Hans Nielsen was plagued by clutch problems on the first day of the 1987 World Final yet still scored 12 points, passing around 7 to 9 opponents (including Henny Kroeze - how did he get behind him ) from the back. Nielsen also transformed the 1985 final with a wide sweep around Jan Andersson in his third ride. Before that, there no been no passing. After that, there was loads. And Nielsen passed riders on a weekly basis whilst riding for Oxford - it's impossible to get a 11.83 league average relying solely on gating. Nielsen was a great gater - but that's certainly not all he was.

 

Hans Nielsen & Kenny Carter didn't get on at all, from what I recall - there was no love lost between those two at all. Of course, Kenny also didn't like the Americans or PC & Mort. And most the other Brits didn't like him either.

 

Did any of the other riders like Carter? He seemed to get on alright with Wiggy (who got on with just about everyone). Was there anybody else?

 

All the best

Rob

 

[kaiser]

Hans Nielsen was plagued by clutch problems on the first day of the 1987 World Final yet still scored 12 points, passing around 7 to 9 opponents (including Henny Kroeze - how did he get behind him ) from the back. Nielsen also transformed the 1985 final with a wide sweep around Jan Andersson in his third ride. Before that, there no been no passing. After that, there was loads. And Nielsen passed riders on a weekly basis whilst riding for Oxford - it's impossible to get a 11.83 league average relying solely on gating. Nielsen was a great gater - but that's certainly not all he was.

 

Hans Nielsen & Kenny Carter didn't get on at all, from what I recall - there was no love lost between those two at all. Of course, Kenny also didn't like the Americans or PC & Mort. And most the other Brits didn't like him either.

 

Did any of the other riders like Carter? He seemed to get on alright with Wiggy (who got on with just about everyone). Was there anybody else?

 

All the best

Rob

 

Well i only really remember The Main Dane passing average riders (granted he wasnt behind that often ). I think its fare to say he wasnt a natural passer in the mould of a Collins, Jan o, Morton or Moran. More of a master of making lightning starts, similar to Mauger in that respect. Im pretty sure Kenny got on with both Morans, dont think he was too friendly with the rest of the yanks though!!!

[waihekerich]

I was an Aces regular from 81-87 and have to say Kenny was the best of any visiting rider round Hyde Rd, only Gundersen would come close. I can't remember Kenny ever dropping more than a point in a league meeting and pretty sure the 81 & 82 BLRC were the only two he compteted in (scoring a maximum in both). I also saw him a number of times at the Shay and Odsal where he was equally dominant.

I'd rank him and Shaun Moran as the two best riders of the 80s not to have won the world title.