speedyguy Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Belle Vue was the only track to run THROUGHOUT the war Rye House ran some meetings in 1940 I believe. So did Glasgow - details at http://www.speedwayresearcher.org.uk/glasgow.html <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I also believe there was racing at Cowley Stadium Oxford in the early part of 1940. For all that, what about my query on the second Crystal Palace meeting - and if Bill Longley DID win a London Riders Championship there in 1940? Many thanks to anyone who can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miro Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 I also believe there was racing at Cowley Stadium Oxford in the early part of 1940. For all that, what about my query on the second Crystal Palace meeting - and if Bill Longley DID win a London Riders Championship there in 1940? Many thanks to anyone who can help. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oxford Motorcycle Speedway Club held meetings at Cowley Stadium Oxford up until 29/10 in 1939, and between 28/4 and 9/6 in 1940 and on 4/5 and 6/6 in 1941. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 I now believe it was the second Crystal Palace 1940 that was won by Bill Longley. This is a quote from the Australian Speedway World dated March 2003. Bill said (he was 91 at the time and obviously a little confused by then - ref Johnnie Hoskins!): "By May 1940 the war had been going for eight months and the last speedway meeting to be cnducted in London was at New Cross by then-promoter Johnnie Hoskins - the London Cup. I won with a maximum." My view is that it was NOT New Cross but Crystal Palace. If there was an involvement by Hoskins it was because he was working in conjunction with ENSA the forces entertainment group. If Longley was correct, it means that an unrecorded took place at New Cross. Therefore, what did take place at the second Crystal Palace meeting? Isn't this intriguing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 When was the last Crystal Palace meeting in 1940 and what was it? I read in an Australian publication this was at Easter 1940 when Johnnie Hoskins promoted a London Riders Championship, won by Bill Longley, and where Keith Harvey set a new track record. However,' Homes of British Speedway' does not mention this meeting but cites: on March 25 1940 the Holiday Cup won by Arthur Atkinson, then another Hoiday Cup meeting was held on Whit Monday, May 13, but does not name a winner. Could this latter event be the meeting where Longley and Harvey were involved? I also believe if Johnnie Hoskins was involved as promoter, he was doing it for the army entertainment group ENSA? I am completely puzzled. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The London Cup was staged at West Ham on whit monday 13 May 1940 and won by Bill Longley with a maximum (from Eric Chitty, George Pepper and George Wilks). The West Ham meeting was a 7pm start, the Crystal Palace meeting started at 6pm. So who were the riders at Crystal Palace?. Intrigingly the programme contains an advert for the following week's meeting - a LEAGUE match against Belle Vue. (The programme editorial promises future league matches against Glasgow and Harringay) As Speedyguy says, all very intriguing - and a thoroughly enjoyable thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 (edited) The London Cup was staged at West Ham on whit monday 13 May 1940 and won by Bill Longley with a maximum (from Eric Chitty, George Pepper and George Wilks). The West Ham meeting was a 7pm start, the Crystal Palace meeting started at 6pm. So who were the riders at Crystal Palace?. Intrigingly the programme contains an advert for the following week's meeting - a LEAGUE match against Belle Vue. (The programme editorial promises future league matches against Glasgow and Harringay) As Speedyguy says, all very intriguing - and a thoroughly enjoyable thread. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Now we are getting somewhere. Obviously Bill was not at Crystal Palace that day. His reference to Johnnie Hoskins may have been a lapse of memory because of his age at the time of interview, ie 91 years. Bill probably became confused because Johnnie while the West Ham promoter in 1940, was the New Cross promoter in the late 1950s-early 1960s. Now we need details, if they, exist about that White Monday Crystal Palace meeting. Can anyone help in that direction please? PS: I also have a query about one of the 1930s Palace teams. A rider named as S Pitcher is listed. Was this Bill Pitcher, later with Harringay and Belle Vue? He had a nickname as 'Skid' and I think this is the named S Pitcher. Bill's brother Vic was also a rider in pre and immediate post war years. Edited December 23, 2006 by speedyguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclone Posted December 25, 2006 Report Share Posted December 25, 2006 Here is some more info. :- Holiday Cup @ Crystal Palace 13/5/1940, 6 pm. 12 hts + 2 semis + final Prog dets as follows 12ht Scores:- Langley (pencilled in as replacing R C Appley) (was this Bill Longley ?) 7pts Ken Brett 4pts Geo Craig 4 Alex Gray 1 P M Hart 9 Keith Harvey 0 Bob Hall 2 Ron Howes 3 Ron Johnson 6 Garrar (pencilled as replacing Jeffrey Lloyd) 2 Page (pencilled as replacing Wally Lloyd) 5 Mick Mitchell 5 Leslie Trim 1 Fred Tuck 5 Vic Weir 2 A A Windmill 8 The Final was Johnson ( r ) Windmill ( b ) Hart (w) Tuck (y) but result not entered ( either never run or spectator left before end). Re replacements assuming Langley was Bill Longley, was Page, Cyril Page ?, and who was Garrar ? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 (edited) Here is some more info. :- Holiday Cup @ Crystal Palace 13/5/1940, 6 pm. 12 hts + 2 semis + final Prog dets as follows 12ht Scores:- Langley (pencilled in as replacing R C Appley) (was this Bill Longley ?) 7pts Ken Brett 4pts Geo Craig 4 Alex Gray 1 P M Hart 9 Keith Harvey 0 Bob Hall 2 Ron Howes 3 Ron Johnson 6 Garrar (pencilled as replacing Jeffrey Lloyd) 2 Page (pencilled as replacing Wally Lloyd) 5 Mick Mitchell 5 Leslie Trim 1 Fred Tuck 5 Vic Weir 2 A A Windmill 8 The Final was Johnson ( r ) Windmill ( b ) Hart (w) Tuck (y) but result not entered ( either never run or spectator left before end). Re replacements assuming Langley was Bill Longley, was Page, Cyril Page ?, and who was Garrar ? . <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is excellent. Let's hope we get the final answer. Langley - wasn't Bill at West Ham the same night. Garrar - now who could that be here. We need a speedway Sherlock Holmes here. Nice to get it tidied up as it was the last ever speedway meeting at the Palace. PS: Since the original answer, Dr Watson (!) tells me that Garrar could well-be George Gower, who was a 1939 Palace rider. Edited December 26, 2006 by speedyguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star ghost Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 There was a Charlie Page who rode at Hackney pre-war Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 There was a Charlie Page who rode at Hackney pre-war <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And that's who I think the Page concerned is. I am also certain Charlie had a few second half rides at Wimbledon in 1946. Believe he may have been linked to Eastbourne pre- and early post-war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 (edited) Apart from the on-going mystery surrounding the finishing results at the last ever Crystal Palace meeting at Whitsun 1940, some other meetings also 'lost somewhere' spring to mind. I am certain that after the Palace moved to New Cross in 1933, on public holidays (Easter, etc) some open championships were/may have been staged between 1934 and 1938. It's likely the starters at these included Lloyd Goffe, Ron Clarke, George Bason, Mick Mitchell. I think the promoter, on behalf of the Crystal Palace, was a Mr Legg. Any details on these around? Edited January 5, 2007 by speedyguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Belle Vue was the only track to run THROUGHOUT the war Rye House ran some meetings in 1940 I believe. Rye House ran 10 meetings in 1940 13 meetings (plus one rained off) in 1941 6 meetings in 1942 4 meetings in 1943 The only year it didn't operate was 1944. They were back on 5 August 1945 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Rye House ran 10 meetings in 1940 13 meetings (plus one rained off) in 1941 6 meetings in 1942 4 meetings in 1943 The only year it didn't operate was 1944. They were back on 5 August 1945 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well doen Rye House. That certainly gives a dent to the Belle Vue legend. Excellent research Norbold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 (edited) The mystery of the last-ever speedway meeting at Crystal Palace for the Holiday Cup on White Monday May 13 1940 has been partially solved. While the results of the semi-finals are not known, the result of the final is. The main finishers were were Ron Johnson, Phil 'Tiger' Hart and Arch Windmill. Thanks to the South London Press, where I was helped by their librarian Hilda McKenna but never saw their esteemed speedway writer (!), I read through the May 15 1940 sports pages. The SLP reports that New Cross and Australia star Ron Johnson was leading the final by five yards when he ground to a halt with a puncture. This let Phil 'Tiger' Hart clear to win by two lengths from Arch Windmill. An early posting lists Fred 'Friar' Tuck as the other finalist - it would be interesting to know if he finished the race. Thus, we have the main result to a piece of speedway history. Sadly, no other riders who tok part at the meeting were named so we still have no idea who 'Langley' was? As Phil Hart was there, could it have been his great pal Steve Langton? Who knows? It certainly was not Bill Longley - as posted elsewhere he was racing at West Ham. Edited January 10, 2007 by speedyguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 (edited) What happened to the guy who originated all this and how is his project going? That's gone very quiet, must be before Christmas when we last heard from him. Any chance of an update about when and where the work on Crystal Palace Speedway might appear? Edited January 13, 2007 by speedyguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Donsking Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 (edited) What happened the guy who originated all this and how is his project going? That's gone very quiet, must be before Christmas when we last heard from him. Any chance of an update about when and where the work on Crystal Palace Speedway might appear? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm here, and having a discussion with you about the Dons elsewhere! The latest news is that the website are in the process of changing servers, and it should be up and running again quite soon; bear in mind this site is funded by private individuals who aren't made of money and also run the thing as a hobby, so changes can take a bit of time. Be patient young speedy, things will occur in the fullness of time. PS: the other thing is, I need to know I've got everything 110% correct; as I proved by expounding a few theories here, there are different versions of events depending on what you read or who you talk to. Having pointed to the existance of my 'magnum opus' to everyone here (I'm no speedway historian by the way), I have no desire to be shot down in flames by every Tom, Dick and Harry that accesses the site. Edited January 10, 2007 by Donsking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 I'm here, and having a discussion with you about the Dons elsewhere! The latest news is that the website are in the process of changing servers, and it should be up and running again quite soon; bear in mind this site is funded by private individuals who aren't made of money and also run the thing as a hobby, so changes can take a bit of time. Be patient young speedy, things will occur in the fullness of time. PS: the other thing is, I need to know I've got everything 110% correct; as I proved by expounding a few theories here, there are different versions of events depending on what you read or who you talk to. Having pointed to the existance of my 'magnum opus' to everyone here (I'm no speedway historian by the way), I have no desire to be shot down in flames by every Tom, Dick and Harry that accesses the site. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I really knew it was you. I just wanted to see if you were still interested in your project on Crystal Palace. Good luck with it. I agree that there are a lot of conflicting dates in regard to the Palace and what went on there. Like Division Two speedway in 1937 when it was 1939 is just one example. There are others which you have doubtless found and corrected. Don't forget the two post-war attempts to reopen the track, and also the fact there was nearly a Division Three Crystal Palace team based at Selhurst Park - the current football ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star ghost Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 (edited) If it is of any use to you the last official fixture ridden by the Crystal Palace team in 1939 was a Second Division League fixture at The Firs Stadium, Norwich on 1st July. Norwich won 50 - 34 and the Palace team was Keith Harvey 8, Ron Clarke & Bob Lovell 6, Vic Weir 4, Mick Mitchell & Les Trim 3, Charlie Appleby & Charlie Challis 2. Max Grosskreutz, in his programme notes on 8th August, said "Everyone agreed the Palace went down fighting. It is difficult to read riders minds when they go on the track knowing it is the last meeting for the team. We take our hats off to the riders, they played the game to the last and we hope they will soon be signed up for other tracks" Other riders I have found with Palace in 1939 are Eddie "Flash" Barker, George Dykes, George Gower, Austin Humphries, George Liddle, Alan Markham, Charlie Page & Ernie Pawson. Oddly enough the 8th August saw Stars ride Stoke and the Potters also folded after that match to surface as Belle Vue Seconds in a few weeks. Edited January 13, 2007 by star ghost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Thanks for this. Believe that Keith Harvey - and possibly Vic Weir - later joined Norwich for the rest of the season until the start of war in September 1939. After the war, Harvey was allocated to Norwich for 1946, announced his retirement, then came back with New Cross and stayed until June 1947. He was past 50 years when he retired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star ghost Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Keith Harvey was allocated to Norwich along with Fred Strecker of Stoke. Fred brought his mate George Dykes with him and George then joined the Stars. Other allocations were Challis (Birmingham), Weir (Bristol), Appleby (Hackney), Lovell (Edinburgh) and Clarke (Harringay) as far as I can tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Donsking Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Wasn't sure where to put this, but as a number of people mentioned the road circuit, this may bring back some happy memories, particularly those who miss the dulcet tones of M Walker. *WARNING, THESE CLIPS HAVE NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH SPEEDWAY* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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