Crystal Palace

[norbold]

Yeah,yeah,Norbold.But who cares about apostrophes?  

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Nothing to do with apostrophes, iris!

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Someone referred previously (can't seem to find the reference now..) to a photo of the 1929 Southern League Crystal Palace team on page 113 of Ron Hoare's excellent 1979 book, 'Speedway Panorama'.

The team shot is on the centre green and ground markings suggest (to me) that this doubles as a football pitch or similar.

The trees in the background bear a striking resemblance to the aerial photo of the Crystal Palace FA Cup Final venue stadium in White & Lilliman's 'Football Grounds of London'. That aerial shot shows that even some years later part of this ground remained tree-lined.

 

I'd suggest that the pic in 'Panorama' is strong evidence (if more was needed..) that the Speedway track was indeed around that once famous football pitch. As the redevelopment of that ground to be replaced exactly by the current Athletics Stadium is a matter of fact (rather than conjecture), I would say that suggestions that the Speedway circuit was located elsewhere in the CP Park grounds are off the mark…

 

It’s interesting, though, isn’t it how quickly details like this can be lost or become confused.. We owe a big debt to the likes of Robert Bamford and John Jarvis (even with the odd error..: I think it’s Clapton/Lea Bridge they may have got wrong, is that right norbold..??) for producing their ‘Homes’ book and to all the track-specific histories to keep the details alive for generations well into the future when no-one will actually remember the tracks in question…

[norbold]

It’s interesting, though, isn’t it how quickly details like this can be lost or become confused..  We owe a big debt to the likes of Robert Bamford and John Jarvis (even with the odd error..: I think it’s Clapton/Lea Bridge they may have got wrong, is that right norbold..??) for producing their ‘Homes’ book and to all the track-specific histories to keep the details alive for generations well into the future when no-one will actually remember the tracks in question…

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely, Derek. We do owe a big debt to Robert Bamford and John Jarvis for their Homes of British Speedway book. It was a big undertaking and is invaluable as a reference work...but there are some errors in it. The worst is their history of Rye House, which completely misses out the building of the third and present track. And yes they do mix up Lea Bridge Stadium with Clapton Greyhound Stadium at one point in their entry and there are also minor errors in a number of other entries. This is not meant as an out and out criticism of the book. As I have said it is such a valuable reference tool in most instances, but just because something is said in Homes doesn't mean it is automatically right, though I'm sure well over 95% is correct.

 

As I know myself only too well, it is almost impossible to get everything right in a book!

Edited December 14, 2006 by norbold

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

"Homes of British Speedway" says "...Messrs  Mockford and Smith, trading as London Motor Sports Ltd, laid a dirt-track around the pitch of their tenants, Corinthians FC, at a cost of £5,025."

 

Is it just me but wasn't £5k an extremely large amount of money for 1928..??!! Especially as - as we've mulled over at some length already..!! - there was already something approximating to a cinder 'track' in position..??!!

 

I wonder how this sum would translate in current money values with the cost of laying a track today.. - especially as, ironically, about a year ago negoiations were underway with the modern day Corinthan Casuals (the merged incarnation of the two previous football club tenants of CP) to put in a track 'round their current home..??!!

Edited December 14, 2006 by Parsloes 1928 nearly

[speedyguy]

Is it just me but wasn't £5k an extremely large amount of money for 1928..??!!  Especially as - as we've mulled over at some length already..!! - there was already something approximating to a cinder 'track' in position..??!!

 

I wonder how this sum would translate in current money values with the cost of laying a track today.. - especially as, ironically, about a year ago negoiations were underway with the modern day Corinthan Casuals (the merged incarnation of the two previous football club tenants of CP) to put in a track 'round their current home..??!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Oh dear! That reminds of an 'exciting period' on another site this time last year...including an incident with a pressure group in a phone box? Just a joke, old friend.

 

PS: I have just looked at page 113 of Ron Hoare's 'Speedway Panorama' and you look spot on with the site reference. Is that background towards Thicket Road I wonder?

Edited December 14, 2006 by speedyguy

[Guest Jim Blanchard]

Oh dear! That reminds of an 'exciting period' on another site this time last year...including an incident with a pressure group in a phone box? Just a joke, old friend.

 

PS: I have just looked at page 113 of Ron Hoare's 'Speedway Panorama' and you look spot on with the site reference. Is that background towards Thicket Road I wonder?

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It was me that posted the reference to that photo in the Speedway Panorama book, which I believed was an indication that the background was closer to 'The Glade'. I deleted that posting, as I had second thoughts - as over the years the background may have changed. Ken Burnett is also of the opinion that the speedway track is much further north than the current running track. Sorry, if I confused the situation even more.

[Guest Donsking]

If there's a background of trees, in 1928 that would've been the background to the football stadium, the pathways around it and the cycle track were tree lined, it was a feature of the park at the time.

[Guest Donsking]

Is it just me but wasn't £5k an extremely large amount of money for 1928..??!!  Especially as - as we've mulled over at some length already..!! - there was already something approximating to a cinder 'track' in position..??!!

 

I wonder how this sum would translate in current money values with the cost of laying a track today.. - especially as, ironically, about a year ago negoiations were underway with the modern day Corinthan Casuals (the merged incarnation of the two previous football club tenants of CP) to put in a track 'round their current home..??!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've spent tonight trawling the net and wading through screeds of dullness about housing in Belgium, income tax in Germany and average wages for everything from engineers to High Court judges, and the only reference to prices in 1928, that I can translate to anything meaningful to me, is car prices.

 

In 1927 (the last year they were made) a Model T Ford cost around 150 quid; today's basic new car costs around 6K.............that's a 4000% increase, which, using that yardstick, means the 5K it cost to convert that basic cinder surface to a speedway track in 1928 relates to around £2,000,000,000 today!

 

That seems like an unbelievable amount of money, but bearing in mind there were only 37 people in the UK earning over 100Kpa in 1955 (a statistic that came as a biproduct of my research), that starts to make some sense.

 

The reality is, that 1928 5 grand probably equates to about £500,000 today, that's enough to put off most people................

[Alan_Jones]

I've spent tonight trawling the net and wading through screeds of dullness about housing in Belgium, income tax in Germany and average wages for everything from engineers to High Court judges, and the only reference to prices in 1928, that I can translate to anything meaningful to me, is car prices.

 

According to www.measuringworth.com;

 

In 2005, £5025 0s 0d from 1928 was worth:

 

£201,676.97 using the retail price index

£232,146.15 using the GDP deflator

£859,249.69 using average earnings

£1,013,021.08 using per capita GDP

£1,338,188.89 using the GDP

[2ndBender]

The worst is their history of Rye House, which completely misses out the building of the third and present track.

 

The third Rye House track??? I thought I had identified the last meeting at the first stadium and the first meeting at, (what I thought), was the second and current stadium, but I clearly need to do more research.

 

Please enlighten me!

[norbold]

The first track was round the outside of the greyhound track.

The second track was moved to the back of the stadium to where the go-kart track later was.

The third and present track is back at the greyhound track but inside.

Edited December 15, 2006 by norbold

[iris123]

This is pure speculation,but could the 5 grand be the total cost of conversion,including building the pits,etc rather than just the track?

And i don't think Ken Burnett's speculation has any grounds,Jim.There is no way the speedway could be anywhere other than where the football stadium and therefore the Athletics stadium is.In photos of the football stadium and plans of the grounds it is to the left of the central avenue.The stands for the football and the speedway are the same.They wouldn't move the stands a few hundred yards,surely.Plus looking at some of the speedway photos,as the riders are coming out of the bend there are a couple of big buildings to be seen with a sign for Teas and light refreshments".Because of these buildings it places the track where the football stadium was.There were 2 buildings either side of the central avenue.The track couldn't move anywhere else.Best to put our efforts to some other task as this is a no-goer,all this speculation

[Guest Jim Blanchard]

I don’t mind Doug I am not that busy. In all honesty, I would not have a clue where it is - I am only passing on what has been said to me regarding its location. Just thinking about all the times I was there in the 60’s with my brother and then all the times I took my kids over there when visiting the in laws. If I had known I would have had a good look around and did some investigating.

 

Caught another picture with trees and and perhaps a grass bank much closer at what looks like just behind the 3rd and 4th bends at a guess. That is in; ‘Ride It’ by Cyril May on page 45. The caption says it’s the 1933 team.

[iris123]

I don’t mind Doug I am not that busy. In all honesty, I would not have a clue where it is - I am only passing on what has been said to me regarding its location. Just thinking about all the times I was there in the 60’s with my brother and then all the times I took my kids over there when visiting the in laws. If I had known I would have had a good look around and did some investigating.

 

Caught another picture with trees and and perhaps a grass bank much closer at what looks like just behind the 3rd and 4th bends at a guess. That is in; ‘Ride It’  by Cyril May on page 45. The caption says it’s the 1933 team.

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I agree with you there Jim.If only i could go back to my youth and take a look at the tracks that were still there at the time.Take a few pics of New Cross,West Ham,Harringay,etc and have a mooch around

[arnieg]

From 19 May 1948 New Cross programme (an individual meeting celebrating 21 years of speedway):

 

"Our first intimation that there was a sport called "dirt track" racing came from some articles written by a lionel Wills, from Australia. at first we were not very much interested, but a little later Wills returned to the country and was introduced to us. He informed us that an australian syndicate was coming to this country to inaugurate the sport, and so he fired us with his own enthusiasm that we decided to have a go ourselves, and we entered into a suitable arrangement with Sir Henry Buckland, of the Crystal Palace, for the laying of a track on the old football cup final ground.

 

This is the start of a 5 page article on the first 21 years of speedway, with a bias towards Crystal Palace/New Cross.

 

The article is unsigned but I assume it is from Mockford and Smith (both are mentioned in the article individually, but they are never referred to together)

[speedyguy]

When was the last Crystal Palace meeting in 1940 and what was it?

 

I read in an Australian publication this was at Easter 1940 when Johnnie Hoskins promoted a London Riders Championship, won by Bill Longley, and where Keith Harvey set a new track record.

 

However,' Homes of British Speedway' does not mention this meeting but cites: on March 25 1940 the Holiday Cup won by Arthur Atkinson, then another Hoiday Cup meeting was held on Whit Monday, May 13, but does not name a winner. Could this latter event be the meeting where Longley and Harvey were involved?

 

I also believe if Johnnie Hoskins was involved as promoter, he was doing it for the army entertainment group ENSA? I am completely puzzled.

[arnieg]

When was the last Crystal Palace meeting in 1940 and what was it?

 

I read in an Australian publication this was at Easter 1940 when Johnnie Hoskins promoted a London Riders Championship, won by Bill Longley, and where Keith Harvey set a new track record.

 

However,' Homes of British Speedway' does not mention this meeting but cites: on March 25 1940 the Holiday Cup won by Arthur Atkinson, then another Hoiday Cup meeting was held on Whit Monday, May 13, but does not name a winner. Could this latter event be the meeting where Longley and Harvey were involved?

 

I also believe if Johnnie Hoskins was involved as promoter, he was doing it for the army entertainment group ENSA? I am completely puzzled.

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The 25 March meeting was won by Arthur Atkinson in a sudden death final from Colin Watson and Keith Harvey. Top scorers in the qualifying heats (from 3 rides): Harvey 9, Phil Bishop 7, Watson 7, Atkinson 6, Wally Lloyd 6.

 

Keith Harvey recorded the fastest time 79.8 in heat 2.

 

Tiger Stevenson and Archie Windmill were among the other competitors.

 

Back page of the programme contains the following:

 

"Air Raid Precautions

 

In the event of an air raid warning, all visitors living within 5 minutes walk are advised to go home.

 

Air raid shelters are situated:-

1. Under the centre steps...."

 

and so on.

[cyclone]

Well here is a later meeting (Courtesy of speedwayswapshop.co.uk) - Speedway Swap Shop Old Prog Gallery

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Well here is a later meeting (Courtesy of speedwayswapshop.co.uk) - Speedway Swap Shop Old Prog Gallery 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Interesting....!! Good to see that the Dagenham Girl Pipers were there!!!

 

I always understood only Belle Vue ran during the war. Seems this track in London carried on , for a while at least, too...

[TwoMinuteWarning]

Belle Vue was the only track to run THROUGHOUT the war

 

Rye House ran some meetings in 1940 I believe.

 

So did Glasgow - details at http://www.speedwayresearcher.org.uk/glasgow.html