Crystal Palace

[iris123]

At a guess(but maybe Norbold can confirm)the 1914 Cup Final was held in ..........

And Parsloes,the Cup Final didn't move to the Oval after the war.It was held in Kennington in the 19 century,not the 20th.Tempus books for ya

Edited December 5, 2006 by iris123

[Guest Donsking]

That image - when was the photo taken I wonder? Not 1914. That must be the speedway track - or has this fact been posted before? For a track that last ran in 1940, we are showing a great deal of interest. That's as it should be - the saying (or something similar) is 'ignore the past and there's no future!' That's rather profound.

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The track around the outside of the football pitch (as mentioned by Parsloes as 'the ring') was more than likely a cinder track used by the players for training, that wasn't that uncommon in those days, it's quite usual to see pictures from around that period of teams training on tracks around their pitches; maybe they had a dual use..........greyhounds??

 

 

At a guess(but maybe Norbold can confirm)the 1914 Cup Final was held in ..........  

And Parsloes,the Cup Final didn't move to the Oval after the war.It was held in Kennington in the 19 century,not the 20th.Tempus books for ya

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The FA Cup Final was held at CP from 1895-1914 inclusively, then it moved to Old Trafford in 1915, then to Stamford bridge when football resumed after the war in 1920, where it stayed until the second most famous cup final at Wembley in 1923.

 

As for my article, maybe I should just do a cut and paste job on this thread, 99% of its content is here!

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

That image - when was the photo taken I wonder? Not 1914. That must be the speedway track - or has this fact been posted before?

 

Hmm, seems you didn't read my posting, speedyguy (understandable I know..!!! : that thing that looks like a Speedway track in the photo of the 1914 match and did become a Speedway track, is the shale 'Ring' put in when the stadium was first built.

 

iris: it was my mistake not the authors I was otherwise quoting, about the FA Cup Finals.

You're right they were initially at Kennington Oval.

1914 was the last one at the Palace. Surprisingly there was one in 1915 and that was the only time (apart from the 1970 replay) the FA Cup Final was played at Old Trafford.

 

After the hostilities were over it was another London ground (and later also to be a Speedway track) where the FA Cup Final returned before moving to Wembley. Not surprised I didn’t get it, as it’s a place I try very firmly to blank from my memory..: Stamford Bridge!!

 

A good quiz question lurking here..: try it on your mates. Since 1895 the FA Cup Final has only twice been played on a ground that’s not also at one time been a Speedway track..: name that ground..?? See above for the answer!!!!

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

And now I'm doing a speedyguy myself..: sorry!!

 

The one thing that puzzles me is the "path racing"..

Heard the expression many times over the years but exactly what was this..: or more to the point what were the paths..?

 

Conquers up images of motorbikes teetering around narrow ornamental paths criss-crossing the (let's face it..) fairly hilly park area..

 

Or was it on (at least partially..) the more substantial road ways (later used for car racing) on the site..?

 

Does anyone have a handle on what this (apparently very popular for a while..) path racing was actually like..??

[Guest Donsking]

And now I'm doing a speedyguy myself..: sorry!!

 

The one thing that puzzles me is the "path racing"..

Heard the expression many times over the years but exactly what was this..: or more to the point what were the paths..?

 

Conquers up images of motorbikes teetering around narrow ornamental paths criss-crossing the (let's face it..) fairly hilly park area..

 

Or was it on (at least partially..) the more substantial road ways (later used for car racing) on the site..?

 

Does anyone have a handle on what this (apparently very popular for a while..) path racing was actually like..??

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Can't say I've ever heard that term myself, but certainly the old race track now does form the pathways around the park, or more likely the other way round.

 

Actually, as a former car racer I've walked the course many times and it's a super track, must've been great to race on, and I'm told the drivers loved it; the only downside was the close proximity of some of the trees, but apparently they counteracted this with the placement of barriers................in the form of railway sleepers!

 

I've always thought the existing paths would make a terrific kart track, but the usual problem exists; the original race track was closed in 1972 after anti-noise protests from the neighbours and, apart from a brief hiatus a few years ago when a one day sprint meeting was allowed for a couple of years, I doubt motor racing of any sort will be back to CP in a hurry...............you should see the fuss they make about one off pop concerts!!!!!!!!!

[speedyguy]

Path racing: here's some info I have just found that may start a guide into what path racing may have been. It's all old and very dated material. They are two separate items of source:

 

(1): "In 1926 motorcycle enthusiasts led by Fred Mockford and Cecil Smith, formed a group called London Motor Sports Ltd, and having identified Crystal Palace Park as a racing venue, were eventually allowed to run a meeting on May 21st 1927 over a 1 mile course of the parks paths. Over 10,000 people turned up to the meeting each paying 1 shilling plus 2d tax (approx. 6p). Following an incident during the meeting, several spectators were injured by a sidecar and questions were asked in Parliament about the incident. By the second meeting £500 had been invested in crash barriers, widening and general improvement of the circuit. Some 16,000 attended this meeting and the scene was set for racing to rival cricket, football, and greyhound racing at the venue."

 

(2): "Fred Mockford and Cecil Smith were the first to stage any form of circuit racing at Crystal Palace when they introduced path racing in 1927. The first meting was on May 21 and featured 10 races over a course of loose surface straights and tarred bends, mainly in an area near to the present Crystal Park Maze.It provided some spectacular racing for an estimated 10,000 crowd who paid a shilling each (5p in modern currency) with riders racing in 175cc, 250cc, 350cc and 500cc solo races and also races for sidecars."

[Guest Donsking]

Path racing: here's some info I have just found that may start a guide into what path racing may have been. It's all old and very dated material. They are two separate items of source:

 

(1): "In 1926 motorcycle enthusiasts led by Fred Mockford and Cecil Smith, formed a group called London Motor Sports Ltd, and having identified Crystal Palace Park as a racing venue, were eventually allowed to run a meeting on May 21st 1927 over a 1 mile course of the parks paths. Over 10,000 people turned up to the meeting each paying 1 shilling plus 2d tax (approx. 6p). Following an incident during the meeting, several spectators were injured by a sidecar and questions were asked in Parliament about the incident. By the second meeting £500 had been invested in crash barriers, widening and general improvement of the circuit. Some 16,000 attended this meeting and the scene was set for racing to rival cricket, football, and greyhound racing at the venue."

 

(2): "Fred Mockford and Cecil Smith were the first to stage any form of circuit racing at Crystal Palace when they introduced path racing in 1927. The first meting was on May 21 and featured 10 races over a course of loose surface straights and tarred bends, mainly in an area near to the present Crystal Park Maze.It provided some spectacular racing for an estimated 10,000 crowd who paid a shilling each (5p in modern currency) with riders racing in 175cc, 250cc, 350cc and 500cc solo races and also races for sidecars."

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There's the clue about the purpose of 'the ring' then.

[norbold]

Surprisingly there was one in 1915 and that was the only time (apart from the 1970 replay) the FA Cup Final was played at Old Trafford.

 

You can read all about the 1915 Final at Old Trafford in an excellent book called Vivian Woodward Football's Gentleman. Woodward came from Clacton so you might be able to guess who the author is!

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

"the scene was set for racing to rival cricket, football, and greyhound racing at the venue."

There's the clue about the purpose of 'the ring' then.

 

Well, yes, that's an odd comment from that writer isn't it, as I don't think dog racing was ever staged there..

It certainly can't have been the reason for the 'Ring' - as it was laid out when the stadium opened in 1895 and greyhound racing arrived on these shores only fractionally before Speedway in the late 1920s..

My guess would be it was intended (perhaps used..??) as some kind of trotting track for horses..??

[Guest Donsking]

Well, yes, that's an odd comment from that writer isn't it, as I don't think dog racing was ever staged there..

It certainly can't have been the reason for the 'Ring' - as it was laid out when the stadium opened in 1895 and greyhound racing arrived on these shores only fractionally before Speedway in the late 1920s..

My guess would be it was intended (perhaps used..??) as some kind of trotting track for horses..??

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The plot thickens!

 

The football stadium was originally built at the behest of the FA who wanted a permanent venue for the FA cup and chose CP because of it's excellent commuter links and it's capacity to cope with large numbers of visitors, in fact Crystal Palace FC wasn't formed until 1905, so for it's first ten years I guess the football pitch was only used occasionally.

 

I suppose the ring could've been intended as a trotting track (although why the FA would choose to install it I've no idea), but equally it could've been a running track or just a training track for the players, as I mentioned earlier.

[iris123]

A bit from Mr Crossley's book about Path Racing.

According to the book a crowd of about 20,000! turned up for the first meeting.The racing was held on the gravel paths that went around the park.A circuit of one mile had been marked out.In most places the paths were only 10-12 ft wide,but at the start it was 40ft to allow a mass start.Spped were relatively slow.The fastest lap was only 33.01 mph,in 1934.Some well known competitorswere Gus Kuhn,Triss Sharp,Lionel Wills,Joe Francis.Sidecars also raced.It says most of the paths used were later occupied by the National Sports Centre,very little of the circuit is today(1980s)discernible

[speedyguy]

A bit from Mr Crossley's book about Path Racing.

According to the book a crowd of about 20,000! turned up for the first meeting.The racing was held on the gravel paths that went around the park.A circuit of one mile had been marked out.In most places the paths were only 10-12 ft wide,but at the start it was 40ft to allow a mass start.Spped were relatively slow.The fastest lap was only 33.01 mph,in 1934.Some well known competitorswere Gus Kuhn,Triss Sharp,Lionel Wills,Joe Francis.Sidecars also raced.It says most of the paths used were later occupied by the National Sports Centre,very little of the circuit is today(1980s)discernible

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While it was a great read, there were some errors in the Lionel Crossley book on Crystal Palace speedway. His estimates of the crowd for the initial path races don't seem to tie in with a book published recently about the Crystal Palace as a motor sport venue. I refer to 'Motor Racing at Crystal Palace - London's own circuit' by SS Collins (Velocebooks). Written, I understand, with a lot of assistance from the Crystal Palace Foundation.

[miro]

On the fascinating 'Nation on Film' series on BBC 4 a few weeks ago a brief clip was shown of the start of a race in a league meeting at - as far as I could tell - Crystal Palace, an extract from a film by the amateur filmamker Claude Endicott - did anyone see it?

[Guest Jim Blanchard]

Speaking to some Vets over the weekend at Brighton, and also to some family members, (my wife was brought up in Trenholme Close - just off Anerley Park Road, yards from the Anerley Gate, and her father was a fan of 'cinder racing' at the CP) to the original speedway track, which was further north of the current running track.

 

That would put it closer to 'The Glade' the part of the path racing or road racing circuit that my brother John Blanchard, who dominated road racing in the late 60's, and was much closer to the trees - as seen in old photo's of speedway books - which was at the 'North Tower' section. I understand that there is a very small section of the original speedway track up there.

Edited December 11, 2006 by Jim Blanchard

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Speaking to some Vets over the weekend at Brighton, and also to some family members, (my wife was brought up in Trenholme Close - just off Anerley Park Road, yards from the Anerley Gate, and her father was a fan of 'cinder racing' at the CP) to the original speedway track, which  was further north of the current running track.

 

That would put it closer to 'The Glade' the part of the path racing or road racing circuit that my brother John Blanchard, who dominated road racing in the late 60's, and was much closer to the trees - as seen in old photo's of speedway books - which was at the 'North Tower' section. I understand that there is a very small section of the original speedway track up there.

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This must be the 'track' used for the Path Racing: the forerunner to the Speedway..

 

I thought we'd established that the actual Speedway track was certainly around the old football ground and therefore exactly under the site of the current Athletics Track..!!

[Guest Donsking]

If it helps at all, I doubt the circuit used for 'path racing' had anything to do with what later became the road racing track.

 

If iris123's quote from Lionel Crossley is accurate and the old path circuit is mainly under the sports centre, then it was centred around the bottom left hand corner of the race track.

 

You can still walk the race track almost in it's entirety, the only bit missing is a section of the esses between Ramp Bend and South Tower Corner.

 

iris' quote also says the path circuit was a mile long, the race track was 1.4 miles at it's shortest, and at one time was considerably longer as it used to feature an infield loop instead of a plain back straight (which was called 'New Link', the clue's in the name).

 

Assuming the weather isn't against me, I will go and have a look between North Tower Crescent and The Glade over the weekend to see if there is a section of cinder track there, but certainly photographic evidence doesn't point to this being the location of the speedway track.

[speedyguy]

If you want a definitive placement for the Crystal Palace track, read "Homes of British Speedway" (Robert Bamford and John Jarvis). It says "...Messrs Mockford and Smith, trading as London Motor Sports Ltd, laid a dirt-track around the pitch of their tenants, Corinthians FC, at a cost of £5,025."

This book carries enough authority to confound the other placements for the track in my opinion.

[norbold]

This book carries enough authority to confound the other placements for the track in my opinion.

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They may be right about Crystal Palace but I wouldn't necessarily go along with that statement. There are a number of mistakes in the book.

[iris123]

They may be right about Crystal Palace but I wouldn't necessarily go along with that statement. There are a number of mistakes in the book.

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Yeah,yeah,Norbold.But who cares about apostrophes?

[speedyguy]

They may be right about Crystal Palace but I wouldn't necessarily go along with that statement. There are a number of mistakes in the book.

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Oh dear!