Crystal Palace

[speedyguy]

In answer speedy, the article is pretty much written, it's just waiting for someone to construct the part of the website where it will reside, however, my research has thrown up one anomaly, namely the actual location of the track.

 

Obviously there is no trace of it now, and I haven't been able to turn up any external pictures that might help to pinpoint it, although it seems to be generally accepted that it was on the site of the football pitch, which is indeed where the athletics track is now.

 

What I have found are some pictures of the Crystal Palace grounds from around the turn of the 20th century, and these show two sports structures, the football pitch and then, on the other side of a wide walkway, more or less where the swimming pool is now, a cycle track.

 

Now, I don't now what the cycle tracks were like back then, but it doesn't look like it was banked like a modern velodrome and it looks too long to have been used for speedway without modification, but it certainly is an elongated oval and it has a grandstand, so I would've thought it more likely that the speedway track was laid inside the cycle track.

 

Unless I can find a definitive answer to it's exact location, I may have to call into question accepted wisdom and re-write that part of the piece which descibes the track location.

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About 35 years ago I was standing on the athletics track. A guy came up and asked me "are you aware that we were standing where the old speedway track once was?" He pointed out certain landmarks that he remembered from when he rode there in the 'special holiday meetings of the 1930s that Buster Buckand used to promote.

For my part, I have always accepted that the speedway does form the base for the present athletics track.

I cannot offhand remember who this guy was but I do know that he worked as a photographer for the old 'Kentish Mercury' then based in Deptford Broadway, SE8. If his name comes to me "in the middle of the night" I will post it.

Have you tried the Crystal Palace Foundation to establish where the track was?

Edited December 2, 2006 by speedyguy

[iris123]

According to Lionel Crossley,the speedway track was built on the football ground and not on the sports ground next door.In fact until 1983 there was still a piece of the track surviving.Fenced off and with a commemorative plaque.So the tracks position was well known

[Guest Donsking]

About 35 years ago I was standing on the athletics track. A guy came up and asked me "are you aware that we were standing where the old speedway track once was?" He pointed out certain landmarks that he remembered from when he rode there in the 'special holiday meetings of the 1930s that Buster Buckand used to promote.

For my part, I have always accepted that the speedway does form the base for the present athletics track.

I cannot offhand remember who this guy was but I do know that he worked as a photographer for the old 'Kentish Mercury' then based in Deptford Broadway, SE8. If his name comes to me "in the middle of the night" I will post it.

Have you tried the Crystal Palace Foundation to establish where the track was?

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That's good information, given that I work for the publishers of the Kentish Mercury as was, I will do some more reseach, but if you have a blinding flash of inspiration in the middle of the night as to the name of that photographer, please do pass it on!

 

 

According to Lionel Crossley,the speedway track was built on the football ground and not on the sports ground next door.In fact until 1983 there was still a piece of the track surviving.Fenced off and with a commemorative plaque.So the tracks position was well known

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I've lived in this area since before the motor racing track closed down, and I know Crystal Palace park back to front; I've never seen the plaque or the preserved piece of track, and, as yet, my contacts in the history society can't confirm what you say.

 

If you have any proof, please give me concrete evidence, it would be much appreciated.

[iris123]

I've lived in this area since before the motor racing track closed down, and I know Crystal Palace park back to front; I've never seen the plaque or the preserved piece of track, and, as yet, my contacts in the history society can't confirm what you say.

 

If you have any proof, please give me concrete evidence, it would be much appreciated.

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Like you i spent a lot of time in the park.As a kid the little zoo,the pelicans,the gorilla statue,the Dinosaurs and even the Athletics stadium were favourites of mine.I always found it amazing you could just walk right into the stadium.Never saw the plaque either,but then i didn't know about it until L.Crossley wrote his book.As an ex-Palace rider i guess he would know where the track was and why would he lie about something like that?

[speedyguy]

The mid-night inspiration came to me: the name of the photographer was Nat Gould, who operated along with George Pead in the Kentish Mercury photographic in the 1960s and 1970s.

 

Additionally, I remain convinced that the athletics track is the base of the old speedway. I was told many, many, many years ago (yes as far back as that!) that when war started, after the 1940 Easter speedway meeting, the track site was taken over and used by the army iuntil 1946.

 

It then, apparently, was unsused until it was decided to build the National Sports Centre, into which the speedway track became absorbed as the foundation/base for the athletics track.

 

I have never seen or heard of a plaque in the park to mark speedway taking place there. Again, try the Crystal Palace Foundation - they have a museum at the top of Anerley Hill and you can also trace more about them via our old friend 'google'.

 

Just as a matter of interest, when the National League Third Division was first put forward in 1947, one-time West Ham team manager Frank Arnold tried to enter a Crystal Palace team - this time based at Selhurst Park (home of Crystal Palace FC). This failed to get going after protests by local rseidents about noise, etc...the old arguments anti-speedway.

[norbold]

I have a suggestion that might help resolve this problem....It was always my understanding that the old football stadium was converted into the speedway track and it is that site that is now the site of the athletics track not the original sports ground. The present stands occupy the same position as the two original wooden stands.

[speedyguy]

I have a suggestion that might help resolve this problem....It was always my understanding that the old football stadium was converted into the speedway track and it is that site that is now the site of the athletics track not the original sports ground. The present stands occupy the same position as the two original wooden stands.

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I agree. That adequately sums up the location of the track. This is what I also understand.

[Guest Donsking]

Thanks for the info speedy, I'm well in touch with both the Crystal Palace Foundation and the Sydenham Society as many of their senior members and historians contribute to the website I'm writing the article for, I've got some people on the case to try and find photographic confirmation of the location.

 

I only suggested that it might not have been built on the football pitch because, from a practical and financial point of view, it would make much more sense to have used the cycle track as a base.

 

The two sites are very close together and when I hear yourself and Norbold using phrases like "it was my understanding", that suggests that no-one has any actual proof and it's possible that there has been a mistake.

 

You are right in saying the land was given over to the military during the war, I believe there were several anti aircraft gun installations in the park, a huge open space on the top of probably the second highest peak in London made it a pretty good landmark for marauding German bomber pilots!

 

Anyway, hopefully something will come to light and confirm everything once and for all, I'm hoping to meet with one of the Crystal Palace museum archivists soon so we can see what useful pictures there may be.

[iris123]

I only suggested that it might not have been built on the football pitch because, from a practical and financial point of view, it would make much more sense to have used the cycle track as a base.

 

The two sites are very close together and when I hear yourself and Norbold using phrases like "it was my understanding", that suggests that no-one has any actual proof and it's possible that there has been a mistake.

 

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Not sure about your first suggestion.What would be more practical and cheaper?.Laying a track on an old football ground or moving a grandstand,?If you look in the book about Crystal Palace speedway you will see 2 things.First a picture of football taking place and speedway.The Grandstand is the same.Secondly there is an ariel view of the site showing both sports grounds and both have circular tracks.So they existed side-by-side for a period.I don't think there is any doubt whatsoever that the speedway track was built on the football ground.The plaque and remains of the track which "existed" until 1983 are another thing.But i imagine if Lionel Crossley said it existed he did see it.Is he still alive?I remember Steve Hone saying he was a friendly bloke and asking about him.

[Guest Schumi]

But i imagine if Lionel Crossley said it existed he did see it.Is he still alive?

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The late Lionel Crossley

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[iris123]

Thanks for that.They are on my ignore list,so didn't see it

[Guest Donsking]

Not sure about your first suggestion.What would be more practical and cheaper?.Laying a track on an old football ground or moving a grandstand,?If you look in the book about Crystal Palace speedway you will see 2 things.First a picture of football taking place and speedway.The Grandstand is the same.Secondly there is an ariel view of the site showing both sports grounds and both have circular tracks.So they existed side-by-side for a period.I don't think there is any doubt whatsoever that the speedway track was built on the football ground.The plaque and remains of the track which "existed" until 1983 are another thing.But i imagine if Lionel Crossley said it existed he did see it.Is he still alive?I remember Steve Hone saying he was a friendly bloke and asking about him.

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Thanks iris, that's what I was after, I would imagine this picture will be known to the Crystal Palace museum so I will be able to see it for myself.

 

I only doubted the location at all because the cycle track also has a grandstand and the track would provide, at the very least, a ready made outline for a speedway track.

 

You're the first person to have actually come up with photographic evidence, when I first put forward my suggestion, the response was along the lines of an 'understanding' or 'an accepted view' and, given that the last time the stadium was seen intact was over 60 years ago and that fact there was virtually a ready made alternative location only a few yards away, I thought there was a possibility that some confusion may have arisen over the years.

[speedyguy]

I tried google 'Racing at Crystal Palace - a brief history' and came up with this:

 

"Towards the end of 1927, Lional Wills (of WD&HO Wills Tobacco) approached Mockford and Smith with a suggestion to try the new Australian sport of speedway at Crystal Palace to supplement the path racing. The football stadium, home of Corinthians football club, was refurbished to provide an oval track at a cost of £5000, and some 30,000 people turned up for the first meeting and within a year some 70 tracks had sprung up throughout the country. In 1929 a league was formed and The Glaziers finished 4th, with Stamford Bridge being champions. By 1934, crowds were falling and having been refused floodlights for evening meetings, Mockford and Smith moved the team to New Cross, and the track fell into disrepair."

[speedyguy]

Here's some more from google - I just keyed in Crystal Palace National Sports Centre:

 

"The track was built on land which was formerly occupied by the football stadium which was built in 1894/5 and which staged a few early FA Cup Finals. The track was originally 440y cinder and opened in May 1964 - the same year as the whole National Sports Centre complex. It was upgraded to a 3M 'Tartan' synthetic track with an opening date of 19th May 1968 and was the first full track of this type not just in the UK but in the whole of Europe and also the first 400m track to be built in the UK. It was resurfaced in 1993 with Polytan PUR and all the runways were coloured blue. The stadium underwent a £1.5 million upgrade in 2004 with the track and base mat being completely renewed again with Polytan. The track opened again on 20th Jul 2004. There is also an indoor straight next to the track and an external throwing area although this is not suitable for competition as the landing area is uphill and is apparently rarely used. Crystal Palace has traditionally been the home of British Athletics and after a few years break from staging top-class meets, the British Grand Prix returned here in 1999.

In the late 1800s and early 1900s there were a succession of running tracks at Crystal Palace but in slightly different locations to the present one. Details of these ones are in the Crystal Palace entry in the old tracks section. A speedway track around the FA Cup Final ground was opened on 19th May 1928 but it is not thought that this track was ever used for athletics."

[speedyguy]

Here's another piece via google:

 

 

"In 1926 motorcycle enthusiasts led by Fred Mockford and Cecil Smith, formed a group called London Motor Sports Ltd, and having identified Crystal Palace Park as a racing venue, were eventually allowed to run a meeting on May 21st 1927 over a 1 mile course of the parks paths. Over 10,000 people turned up to the meeting each paying 1 shilling plus 2d tax (approx. 6p). Following an incident during the meeting, several spectators were injured by a sidecar and questions were asked in Parliament about the incident. By the second meeting £500 had been invested in crash barriers, widening and general improvement of the circuit. Some 16,000 attended this meeting and the scene was set for racing to rival cricket, football, and greyhound racing at the venue.

Towards the end of 1927, Lional Wills (of WD&HO Wills Tobacco) approached Mockford and Smith with a suggestion to try the new Australian sport of speedway at Crystal Palace to supplement the path racing. The football stadium, home of Corinthians football club, was refurbished to provide an oval track at a cost of £5000, and some 30,000 people turned up for the first meeting and within a year some 70 tracks had sprung up throughout the country. In 1929 a league was formed and The Glaziers finished 4th, with Stamford Bridge being champions. By 1934, crowds were falling and having been refused floodlights for evening meetings, Mockford and Smith moved the team to New Cross, and the track fell into disrepair. Speedway was revived in 1937 for the new second division, but they could not recapture the glory days of the Glaziers, or match the 71,311 attendance of the 1930 Easter Monday meeting, and as the war loomed in 1939, speedway came to an end."

Edited December 3, 2006 by speedyguy

[speedyguy]

Reading the postings I extracted from elsewhere on google, there seems to be some errors in what others have posted in them. The second division team was in 1939 not 1937. The track did not become derelict after 1934 - but did stage some August Bank Holiday meetings in subsequent years. The last meeting there was at Easter 1940 when Bill Longley won the London Championship (?). And in 1934, 1935 and 1938 there was other motor sport activity at the track.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Hmm, breaking a run of four speedyguy contributions in a row(!): Alex White & Bob Lilliman’s excellent ‘Football Grounds of London’ (Tempus 2005) is another help in sorting out the links between the former Speedway track, the once-proud football ground and the soon-to-be redundant Athletics stadium in CP Park.

 

White & Lilliman tell us, the origin of the football ground and adjacent cycle track was to fill in the two large fountain basins part of the original ornamental grounds when the CP was moved to Sydenham Hill from Hyde Park. The FA wanted a large football ground in London (as they later did in the 1920s and I understand do again now..!!!) to stage their Cup Final in. This the new ground did from 1895 to the start of the Great War.

 

There was an unusual feature of the ground called ‘The Ring’. I’m not clear exactly why this was put there (perhaps it was forward planning for a track or similar around the pitch) but from the description given and a good photo also in the book, this ring was inside the grandstands, pavilion and main terrace banking. From the photo one can see that the main spectator areas were indeed a long way from the pitch but there was provision for 3,000 or so to stand within the roped off Ring itself and so be pitch-side so-to-speak.

110,000 were there for the 1901 FA Cup Final: the last time a non-league side won the trophy..: the winners..? I’ll give you a clue..: the team lost 3-0 to Arsenal last weekend..: ha!!

 

After World War One the FA Cup moved over to Kennington Oval and the Crystal Palace FC themselves to Herne Hill Cycling Stadium. Instead the football ground was used by both Corinthians and Casuals (two clubs who later merged and ironically were involved in a Speedway story last year when Wimbledon nearly negotiated a deal with them to use their much, much more modest current home in Tolworth..). The cataclysmic fire which destroyed the glass CP in 1936 meant the end of football at the ground and in the late ‘50s it was demolished and replaced by the so-called National Sports Centre – in reality, the Athletics stadium.

 

In 1928, as others have posted, the ‘Ring’ had finally got itself a use as the Speedway track – used there for a few years before the promotion decamped to New Cross; and for a shortish period post-war too. Over 70,000 for a Speedway meeting there in 1930!! Very impressive – a bigger crowd than ever watched club football at the stadium!! As speedy implies there was motor-racing (cars) in the park in the ‘30s when the arena served as the paddock.

 

So there’s no question that the site of the current Athletics Stadium (which IS exactly on the footprint of the former Football Ground) is the place where the Speedway track was located.

 

Of course, post 2012 I’m anticipating that the stadium will become redundant again with Track & Field having a new national home within the Olympics site.. A chance for Speedway to return to CP Park..?? Hmm, one can dream..!!

Edited December 5, 2006 by Parsloes 1928 nearly

[speedyguy]

Sorry to sandwich you 'Parsloes 1928 nearly' but items kept popping up after I had posted one. I hope you will agree there is some interest in them in regard to he old Crystal Palace speedway team?

 

I am really looking forward to reading the article by 'Donsking' on this subject.

[iris123]

Indeed Parsloes.Looking at the photo of the 1914 Cup Final,the crowd is a hell of a way back from the pitch!

[speedyguy]

Indeed Parsloes.Looking at the photo of the 1914 Cup Final,the crowd is a hell of a way back from the pitch!

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That image - when was the photo taken I wonder? Not 1914. That must be the speedway track - or has this fact been posted before? For a track that last ran in 1940, we are showing a great deal of interest. That's as it should be - the saying (or something similar) is 'ignore the past and there's no future!' That's rather profound.