speedway. the future.

[Mylor]

....................all of the above.

 

SCB,

Thanks for your contribution

 

If I were a top rider under the present rules I may think much the same, however, we have already ascertained that the present setup should change as there doesn’t seem to be a bottomless pit for riders to take money from. It all comes out of your pocket and my pocket whether we attend meetings, buy the merchandise or subscribe to Sky.

 

The goose that laid the golden egg for the select few is dying.

 

The discussion on the future of speedway is about much more than how we can maintain the top rider’s earnings at their present level. That’s not what the sport’s about and not what this thread’s about. It’s about viability, expansion and popularity, the sort of popularity that would ultimately bring millions of pounds (or Euros) into the sport.

 

Riders can only take what’s on offer but if it’s not on offer they, like the rest of us, learn to live within our means or find other ways to top up their income from such as sponsorship and, if the sport gains in popularity like it should, advertising and merchandising.

 

The European Club Championship?

I can’t see where you got the idea that it would be held in one country or that riders could ride in it without traveling. I’ve copied part of it below so you can read it again. I did edit it slightly to make it clearer. In another post I did make it clear that we could expect admission fees to be higher for the 3 (minimum) home ECC matches as you would expect.

 

For 2005………..All teams would ride in their national leagues. Perhaps those qualifying for the ECC would become exempt from the BLC if it’s still running. The ECC teams, say 16 or 20, would go into a draw to produce 4 mini-leagues. They would compete home and away. The top 2 go forward to the 2 leg quarterfinals, 2 leg semis, then a final held possibly on a GP track within a few days of the GP (because the corporate & merchandise infrastructure, TV etc would already be there?).

 

Qualifiers would get a full league program, including local derbies, of course, and a minimum of 6 or 8 ECC matches. TV (Sky and/or terrestrial, who may become interested at this level) would get a larger EL and 25 or 33 ECC matches. Promoters get more through the turnstiles and more TV money. Supporters get...............to breathe a sigh of relief at least but I get the feeling it will put smiles on quite a few faces.

 

For those who haven’t read the thread you’ll find it here:

http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forum/view...opic.php?t=3294

 

To be fair SCB, you did make some suggestions for improvement in an earlier post. A little confusing for newcomers methinks but valid just the same. The difference between our two approaches seems to be scale. The ECC should grow the sport to such an extent that everyone who wants to should make a good living at it and give the enthusiastic ‘amateurs’ more opportunities should they wish to move up.

 

Your last paragraph ‘Would the EL fans turn up….’ Threw me a bit.

PL fans turn up to see teams without GP riders every week, often in greater numbers. Many of them argue that the racing’s better but that’s for another thread. I agree that teams relying heavily on riders who ride in more than one country would find things tough during the transition but, perhaps by extending the timeframe, that should be manageable. They may even wish to invest their savings in young British talent, start a training track or lease someone else’s for a day or two a week, and/or enter a team in the CL or CT. Yes riders would move up, even whole teams may move up. If we’re not careful we may have a viable EL.

[Mylor]

Thanks SCB, good reply.

 

You could be right but I see it as too big a change with quite a risk involved and it requires the backing of the Swedes and the Poles.  

 

I think short of asking our Polish & Swedish members to do a translation job for us the best we can hope for is that one of our more influential members will raise the issues with the powers that be.

 

...........and then the Poles will be left with a few mediocre Poles in there leagues all because riders have chased the money.

 

It's what happens in speedway and other sports at all levels. Poole appear to be more affluent than many others in the EL and can attract the best even though there would be fewer of them available. Some riders may chase the money, others may wish to win a few trophies. It's by no means certain that the two would go together.

 

Or the 3 leagues could try and run a European League as well as there own Elite Leagues but with different teams (a bit like the BLC, that way us PL teams won't be affected ).  That would give it time to settle, even out and for all the problems to be solved before they made it into a bigger more prestigious competition.

 

With all the goings on in the BLC I see the need for a strong international controlling body to make this viable but then we need one of those anyway. I'm not sure the fans would take to supporting 2 separate teams (even if they could put 2 together without affecting the PL) and can't see how this would fit in with the aim of reducing costs.

 

Methinks we're on the right lines though. Do you?

[Mylor]

SCB,

 

Speedway is a business like any other. Ultimately businesses that don't look after their customers will fail to thrive (the state the EL is in now) and eventually fail altogether.

 

In an 'us and them' culture managers won't listen. Enough customers putting forward reasonable ideas over a long enough period will influence the best of them, and only the best will survive.

 

The forum is becoming more respected in the circles that count. Managers and promoters (Coventry, Oxford and Wimbledon) are browsing the threads and beginning to post without needing to hide their identities. The more we encourage this, the better our chances of getting the best of our ideas adopted and the sport can move forward. Hopefully the best managers will post their ideas too. It may take a little while but it is within reach.

 

From this moment SCB, you are no longer scum but a valuable asset who can make a difference. Keep posting

[Guest davej92]

Ok Here goes - i may jump across topics here but i think all are relevant to the current state of the sport.

 

firstly the GPs. they are here and they will remain. the sooner we (fans and promoters) realise that the better. every rider wants to be world champion and not many riders are going to give up the chance of a gp career versus league racing.

currently gp prize money is not capable of covering the costs therefore the riders have to ride in the various leagues to cover costs. maybe it is time for someone to run a gp team on the same basis that the f1 teams run - to develop new machinery - anyone listening at honda/yamaha?? problem there is that you have the possibility of world class riders on experimental kit and not as fast as they should be. bloody hell - we may get some racing!!

 

second thing about the gps is that we know that they are going to be on a saturday night - therefore again we need to live with it. promoters who run on Saturday night tracks either need to change their night or run without gp riders. IMO british speedway should be run on ONE SINGLE night in the week in a similiar way to football with teams home one week and away the next.

i know certain tracks have problems with clashes due to other events at their stadiums. These promotions are obviously second class tenants if they cannot change their night - if so they have a problem which needs sorting - typically they do not make as much money as greyhounds for example. quid pro quo - we need to make speedway profitable for promoters and one way to do this is to get the fans back.

 

how do we get the fans back??

1. we give them their team - ie 10 riders (a squad!) who ride for them. not them and a polish team, and a swedish team and a PL team.

2. we give them speedway once every two weeks - its bloody expensive to take a family of four to meetings every week.

3. re-introduce relegation and promotion - i know there are massive differences of opinion here - but i don't see an alternative

4. introduce a european competition for the top teams in each country

5. clean the stadiums up

6. make the promoters realise that they do actually need to promote their sport - and wearing a 20 year old belle vue jacket and smoking a fag isn't exactly the image that will attract your average 20 year old male!

 

etc, etc

 

i'm rambling so i'll stop - anybody agree with me on any of this??

 

Dave

[Gemini]

.1. we give them their team - ie 10 riders (a squad!) who ride for them. not them and a polish team, and a swedish team and a PL team.

Interesting post, but a few flaws I think.

To answer the point above - where do you think we are going to find ten riders per team who would be willing to just ride in England once a fortnight and not ride for any other team abroad?

2. we give them speedway once every two weeks - its bloody expensive to take a family of four to meetings every week.

Speak for yourself! Why should we all be reduced to a meeting every two weeks because some can't afford to take all the family?

3. re-introduce relegation and promotion - i know there are massive differences of opinion here - but i don't see an alternative.

Afraid that won't work due to some tracks not wishing to be promoted for various reasons - but mostly the expense of being in a higher league.

5. clean the stadiums up.

Agree with that statement. Must say that since new owners have taken over at Brandon they are concentrating on doing just that and are doing a brilliant job.

6. make the promoters realise that they do actually need to promote their sport - and wearing a 20 year old belle vue jacket and smoking a fag isn't exactly the image that will attract your average 20 year old male!

Not thinking of anyone in particular here are you?

[sussex bulldog]

A remark in the Sussex newspaper, the Argus, today attributed to Eagles promoter, Jon Cook throws some light on Elite League costs.

 

He is quoted as saying a top speedway rider would earn £300,000 from riding in GPs over ten years but might expect to earn 1 million from riding in the Elite League for the same period.

 

If that is correct it is easy to see where the Sky money has gone.

[paulr]

. IMO british speedway should be run on ONE SINGLE night in the week in a similiar way to football with teams home one week and away the next.

i know certain tracks have problems with clashes due to other events at their stadiums. These promotions are obviously second class tenants if they cannot change their night - if so they have a problem which needs sorting - typically they do not make as much money as greyhounds for example. quid pro quo - we need to make speedway profitable for promoters and one way to do this is to get the fans back.

 

2. we give them speedway once every two weeks - its bloody expensive to take a family of four to meetings every week.

 

 

i'm rambling so i'll stop - anybody agree with me on any of this??

 

Dave

 

Hi and welcome dave - while your post gives out a lot of enthusiasm for speedway, your argument does have some flaws :

Football does not run on a single night in the week - there is a big move from the fans to get back to some predicatability re days (and times) of matches - eg MUFC fans staging a protest b4 a game as it had been more than 10 weeks since a 3pm Saturday KO at OT. This week football has been on every night - premiership, Nationwide league and European ties, 3 games on sunday at different KO times etc.

 

To call promotions second class tenants is a bit unkind, if speedway isnt making money, and other events at a stadium are, the owners have to make business decisions based on revenue and profit, and changing racing days/times may be restricted due to local council policy.

 

You compare football to speedway in your post - continue the comarison re prices - a family ticket at Armadale cost £14, its £3 for kids at Brandon, Im sure Monmore does a family price (can confirm after Monday). With some football grounds approaching £30 for an average seat for an adult and £17 for a kid (and there is no reductions at Villa Park for the seats that face the pitch :!: :!: :twisted: ), speedway is much much more affordable, and I believe the atmosphere is more child friendly.

 

I happily let the kids wander around at speedway (as long as I keep the airhorns - dont want them playing with them without supervision)), at football I would not, nor would the heavy handed stewarding let me.

 

The one point you make which I totally agree with, is that in order for the sport to flourish, or indeed survive there has to be a way of getting more people to the stadiums and witness it. Im not sure how many clubs do things with local schools, advertising etc, but I think we all agree that the conversion rate from a speedway virgin to a fan is quite high - once we get them to a track, so for me the real challenge is getting people to come to the stadiums.

 

The sport can play about with medding the EL, GP, PL, CL, averages etc - its only the existing fans who notice the changes and would an EL moving from 8 to 12 teams bring lots of new fans rushing in ?? - I dont think so because as a sport its way down in the nations 'awareness of sports league', so who would notice ??

 

There are lots of discussions about Sky and their impact on the sport. I dont have Sky so I dont know how good their programmes are but after attending a few Sky live meetings this season IMHO they interfere with a live meeting too much. Twice at Brandon recently its been 19:50 and they still havent tossed the coin, lots of stupid (boring) interviews, and just the impression that they drag a meeting over too great a length of time - Ok for me during school holidays but those extra 45/55mins to a meeting (plus 40 mins travel) means at school term time it too late for the kids to go to bed after a meeting so we wont go = loss of revenue.

 

Perhaps if some of the Sky revenue was put in a pot for national and local awareness/advertising of the sport there may be some increase in the awareness and popularity of the sport.

 

Its not an expensive sport to televise, so would it be possible to have cameras at most of the meetings each week. Not everyone has Sky, so is it possible to sell the film for highlights or a weekly review programme to someone like C4 or ITV ??

 

Sorry for the essay... Cheers Paul

[paulr]

He is quoted as saying a top speedway rider would earn £300,000 from riding in GPs over ten years but might expect to earn 1 million from riding in the Elite League for the same period.

 

If that is correct it is easy to see where the Sky money has gone.

 

Sorry while I was writing my version of war and peace (above) I missed SB's post. I had often wondered just what the riders earn (is/was there a topic for this somewhere ??) cos it seems to me that between riding for an EL team and a PL team, riding in Sweden and/or Poland, the GP and the individual country championships, that these boys work hard for their dosh. Ive heard talk of £5 a point, and £40k a year but I dont know.

 

I cant think of any sport that is so troubled by injuries as speedway is, with riders patching themselves up and riding when not fully fit and so I applaud them all, but question the sanity of it. But why are they risking life and limb in such a way ? - is it because the pay is so bad that they have to ride, is the amount per point enough to make a difference ? greed ? madness ?? - what ?

 

Sorry its off topic.. Cheers Paul

[howling gorgon]

Having lost Wolves speedway once, and missing terribly the intense rivalry with Cradley and even birmingham, we need to look beyond our own team's next meeting and see the bigger picture.

 

Blimey, I am agreeing with a wolves fan, well said 847......, when I started following speedway, we had Cov/Cradley/Leicester/Wolves & Birmingham, the midland cup was a real buzz (pardon the pun!!) & properly raced for, most teams riders were committed to their clubs, with either the odd Long Track or Sunday continetial meeting boosting the earnings of the top riders.

 

You only got to see the likes of Mauger/Penhall/louis etc once or twice a season & it was a real thrill to see them up against the likes of Olsen/Shirra etc, speedway has lost its magic through over familiarity, the EL is basically the same old week in week out, a radical revamp & the spreading out of the riders amongst more teams is a must.

[Guest davej92]

I just had to pick this one out! You cannot afford it so change it?! Fantastic idea, I love it! BUT wait, what about the person who wants to do 4 meetings in a week and can afford it? They cannot, at leats you have a choice, do 4 meetings or do just 1.

 

Not quite the way I intended this comment!

Regarding the once every fortnight - aren't the promoters moaning that THEY can't afford the top riders?? What I'm getting at is that I'd rather pay more to see top quality speedway with top quality riders (I know the two don't always go together but that's a different story!) once every fortnight than see cobbled together teams every week.

 

I actually work away from home quite a bit and love the chance to visit tracks and watch speedway in places, and with teams, that I wouldn't normally get the chance to see. BUT for the overall good of the sport I do think that a single night (not day - anybody agree that speedway at night is far better?? Sorry newport - better get those floodlights plugged in!) would make the sport more accessible to non speedway folk - who, let's face it, are the people we need to become speedway folk in order for the sport to survive/flourish.

 

I also think some of the comparisons pricewise with football are like comparing apples and oranges. Going to Brandon (one of the better facilities i might add) and to Villa Park are two completely different things - even if your view isn't good!

 

and don't get me wrong - i want the sport to thrive - and a lot of good things are being done..... but we can't rest on any laurels....

 

Dave

[Diamond-dog]

At this moment in time the team sport in which I have watched since the day's of Mauger, Briggs, ect is sadly fading as the GP seems to be the main focus of the media, it is also time for a big shake up at the BSPA, how many more teams will the Elite league lose before the sport becomes a joke at the highest level this should be the biggest league not the PL.

 

This inward looking group of people with only there self interest will do speedway no good it will take drastic action and hard work, and sack that £500 a day PR guy he ain't worth 2p, time to consider one league for senior racing and raising the points limit to 50, restrict teams to one GP qualified rider, dumping the golden double, bring back the golden Helmet challenge, Speedway needs the equivlent to the FA Cup and League cup in place of the present BLT which has done more harm than good,and stop the conference from having former riders in there sides this is a league for "New" blood not a retirement division.

 

Try to minimise the number of guest riders I know this will be difficult as only a squad system can eradicate this but I would rather see a R/R rule applied where all riders can have a R/R ride for the missing rider than see a guest who may or may not "Do his bit" it will also bring the "Team" element of the sport a greater understanding to "new" supporters.

 

Stop the elimination of riders for tape touching and 2 minutes penilise yes by putting the offending rider on the 15mtre mark,exclude riders for dangerous riding in a sin bin by missing there next programmed outing, a much more understandable punishment than currant R/X rules.

 

Referees in any sport get a raw deal and speedway is no exception but many tracks have live video feed being used so why can't the ref have access to playback on a decision that he has to call on, it can only make the sport more professional.

 

And last but not least thanks to Sky for taking up speedway it found the sport floundering and has giving it a window in which to display itself only the sport and it's ruling body seems to be a little bit subdued with this emense opportunity to show what a great entertaining sport speedway is

but it's time to rewrite the rule book to take the team sport forward from here.

[Kevin Meynell]

How much is a return flight to Sweden and Poland?

 

Most, if not all, riders have their airfares paid by their teams in addition to their points money/salary. There might be some savings on machinery, but again, this is often sponsored as well.

 

Realistically, there will never be an agreement to restrict the number of leagues that a rider can ride in. Britain, Poland and Sweden all want to see the best riders in their leagues, and quite honestly, there's no real reason why they shouldn't as their racedays generally don't clash. The Polish League rides on a Sunday and the Swedish League on a Tuesday, when no BEL team is riding.

 

The real issue is the SGP and how it coexists with the national leagues, and the BEL in particular. At the moment, you have a commercial company (BSI) who are able (thanks to the FIM) to run the series without any regard to existing competitions, and without paying anything in the way of compensation to those affected. The money that they pay to the FIM (USD 1.1 million per season) does not come back into speedway, and even the local GP promoters who actual stand most of the financial risk are allegedly losing money.

[Kevin Meynell]

Or the 3 leagues could try and run a European League as well as there own Elite Leagues but with different teams

 

I generally like the idea of a European League, because if the financial issues could be solved, it would fit well in the current structure of the sport. Quite honestly, given that how myself and most fans prefer team racing, I'd rather have it than the SGP.

 

However, the problem with any European League will be solving the mismatch between the number of fixtures staged in each country. Polish and Swedish teams only stage around 20 fixtures each, not to mention that the Swedish season only runs from May until September for weather reasons. If teams run exclusively in a European League, 20 fixtures will not be sufficient for the top riders, but the Polish and Swedish teams would have problems affording an extending programme as they rely heavily on sponsorship rather than gate money. In the case of the Swedish teams, they would also have problems fitting more fixtures into their short season (and I'm sure their riders would want paying before May).

 

You could run a European Champions League-type competition in parallel with existing national leagues, but again, it would require the Polish and Swedish teams to stage more fixtures than they normally do. Alternatively, you might have the Polish and Swedish teams competing exclusively in a European League, with the British teams running in both the European League *and* one of the British leagues. In effect, they would be tracking separate teams, perhaps on the lines of the BLC. However, there is a danger that fans wouldn't turn-out in numbers for the inferior competition, and there is still the issue of insufficient meetings for Polish and Swedish teams' riders.

 

The only way I see around the problem is to allow the Polish and Swedish teams' riders to double-up for different teams in their domestic leagues. Perhaps riding in the Danish, Czech and German leagues might be another option, but those leagues can't really afford the top riders at the moment.

[Trees]

IMO they can fiddle about how they like, bring other teams up to the EL etc etc but the one thing that needs to be improved is the racing, although I have only really watched racing at Lynn this season it just isn't good enough or exciting enough for people. Must have more passing.

[Diamond-dog]

Having the the Elite league grafted onto some European super league won't work on a practical level, we have the best Speedway league right here it's just needs a little fine tuning to get it right, I mean just look at the state of the countrys national sport "Football" there is the premiership

sapping the life blood from the game when lesser clubs struggle to stay in operation all because the money stays with the top teams, you have to make sure all clubs are well catered for from all monies received whether it's GP or League it has to be spread out among all clubs.

 

Having a EU super league sounds great, who will travel to away games to Poland and Sweden, a small elite click hardly enough to fill a mini bus and how many of thier fans will fill your stadia for the return legs?? zero!!

Wow!! we're already in debt and we ain't got another home meeting for another week or two will be the cry, it will be the final nail into the EL coffin.

[Kevin Meynell]

Having the the Elite league grafted onto some European super league won't work on a practical level

 

That's what the discussion was about.

 

we have the best Speedway league right here it's just needs a little fine tuning to get it right

 

I think it needs more than just a bit of fine-tuning. It needs a radical overhaul.

 

Having a EU super league sounds great, who will travel to away games to Poland and Sweden

 

How many fans travel to away meetings in the British leagues these days? The amount of money they generate is almost insignificant.

 

it will be the final nail into the EL coffin.

 

An Euro League clearly isn't affordable as things stand at the moment. I would look to finance it with television and sponsorship money, much like the SGP is now.

 

The problem with the current structure in Britain (and other countries) is that only a handful of teams can afford to run in the top league. Unfortunately, this isn't enough for a viable league, so other teams have to be induced to run beyond their means to make-up the numbers. A league at European level, would allow the 3-4 teams in each of the major countries to run top-flight speedway, whilst allowing the others to run at a more sensible, cost effective level.

[Hammer]

Dear Speedway fans

 

To make speedway half decent, someone at the BSPA/Speedway star/SCB, needs to go along to somewhere like Arena Essex on a cold weekday evening, and take a long, hard, realistic look at whether or not that should be a paying spectator's (sometimes speedway virgin) experience of this potentially fantastic sport.

 

Lots of love - Hammer

[Sean]

Maybe we jumping too far ahead with the europeon super league idea.

 

but ..and maybe but.. i can see a Europeon Knockout cup working, taking say the top two teams from each of the Swedish, Czech, Polish, Danish, German and British leagues, and putting them into a knock out cup on a home and away basis.

would you get People travelling as much as they do now for GP's if they were to follow a team all the way to the europeon finals.

 

just a thought thats all!

[Kevin Meynell]

Sean,

 

but ..and maybe but.. i can see a Europeon Knockout cup working, taking say the top two teams from each of the Swedish, Czech, Polish, Danish, German and British leagues, and putting them into a knock out cup on a home and away basis.

 

The fundamental problem with any European-wide competition, is that the top riders currently ride for teams in more than one country. The only real (and credible) way around the problem, is for teams to sign separate squads for their European campaign, so that any one rider only rides for one team in the competition. Of course, each team would then need have a guaranteed number of matches to make it worth their while.

 

A knockout cup would only guarantee a couple of matches, which isn't really enough to generate the necessary economies-of-scale. At the very least, you'd need to adopt a UEFA Champions' League-type format.

 

would you get People travelling as much as they do now for GP's if they were to follow a team all the way to the europeon finals.

 

The SGP has shown what can be achieved with proper organisation, but I'm of the view that fans in the major speedway nations prefer team racing. The SGP is in danger of killing the golden goose, as I'm sure most fans only follow it because their team's riders happen to be taking part. If the link with team racing was broken, I believe you'd see a rapid decline in interest. Personally, I'd rather see a European Cup/League, although that would obviously be more difficult to promote and organise than the SGP.

[Mylor]

but ..and maybe but.. i can see a Europeon Knockout cup working, taking say the top two teams from each of the Swedish, Czech, Polish, Danish, German and British leagues, and putting them into a knock out cup on a home and away basis.

Sean.........see http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forum/view...opic.php?t=3294.

 

An extract for you:

 

For 2004……….riders can only sign for one team reducing the costs of running in the EL. Steady now.........read the rest of this before you come to any conclusions!! A few PL teams may then become interested in moving to the EL and those thinking of leaving the EL may change their minds. This would give the EL supporters more variety, keep Sky interested and solve the immediate crisis. The top 4 or 5 would qualify for the European Club Championship (ECC) along with teams from the Polish, Swedish and other leagues.

 

For 2005………..All teams would ride in their national leagues. Perhaps those qualifying for the ECC would become exempt from the BLC if it’s still running. The ECC teams, say 16 or 20, would go into a draw to produce 4 mini-leagues. They would compete home and away. The top 2 go forward to the 2 leg quarterfinals, 2 leg semis, then a final held possibly on a GP track within a few days of the GP (because the corporate & merchandise infrastructure, TV etc would already be there?).

 

Qualifiers would get a full league program, including local derbies, of course, and a minimum of 6 or 8 ECC matches. TV (Sky and/or terrestrial, who may become interested at this level) would get a larger EL and 25 or 33 ECC matches. Promoters get more through the turnstiles and more TV money. Supporters get...............to breathe a sigh of relief at least but I get the feeling it will put smiles on quite a few faces

 

 

I posted that some time ago so I think it may be too late now for the powers that be to get it rolling for 2004, but we live in hope eh!

 

Kevin and I are pointing in much the same direction but see it slightly differently. Neither route is perfect but either would generate a lot of interest from broadcasters and sponsors.