Hazzman Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 Seems people have deviated from the point of this thread. My brother does exactly the same thing as what is going on in this thread. When he is losing in a discussion, he changes the subject and defends his point on that rather than the original point people were discussing. You then carry on arguing over some small petty thing you forget what it is you were talking about in the first place. I believe this is called 'Deflecting' <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not really. We were just proving what the strongest league was, thereby taking into an account that a rider being a better quality than another one would be show in his Swedish and Polish averages. Which Harris does over Stead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazzman Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 Much has been made of the averages of riders in the three leagues, apparently lower averages prove a higher standard. Just to avoid any doubt, you are comparing like with like. i.e. 7 man teams racing each other team home and away over 15 heats twice in the season, aren't you? As a matter of interest why is Lee Richardson's average higher in Sweden than UK? Oh, I see the EL is a higher standard Let’s face it you have failed miserably to disprove the fact that the best, most demanding and truly representative league in the speedway world is in UK. Thanks for coming <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I have presented a decent fact, Richardson obviously feels more at home in Sweden and has been struggling in UK. The top riders on the form seem to score points in the EL than anywhere else, why? You didnt find that answer. Just look at some the EL's also-rans, how valued they are abroad, they are simply also-rans. The averages which you say are debateable because of 7 man teams, Poland rides with 8 man teams, many times the 8th spot is blank because they have one scheduled ride and Sweden despite the extra heat have a long and complication way of levelling the average off. Most of all, have you ever seen a match from abroad in Sweden and Poland? You see these bore-fests which come on Sky, quite a few I may add from your home track. One rider storms off from the gate, leaving others behind. Then elsewhere its racing, in and out of each other. I will happlily count the passes for you from the Elite League Play-Off Final 2005 and then the E-liga Play-off Final 2005. One example, Tomasz Chranowski, he's a Pole, he should do well in Poland, heres been doing incredible in the EL. Poland 7.43 UK 8.43!!! Sweden 5.93!!! In Poland hes third heat leader/second string status, comes here hes second heat leader status and in Sweden he's a lower second string. Just so its not a rider from either of the three countries, Niels Kristian-Iversen Poland 6.79 UK 7.96 Sweden 7.05 Another rider who finds a lot more easier to score points in the UK. Why is that, Drop A Cog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subedei Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 Gol one then, have it your own way, put Simon Stead in the GPs. At least it'll give me something to laugh at next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 (edited) As a matter of interest why is Lee Richardson's average higher in Sweden than UK? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So Lee Richardson averages more in Sweden than GB therefore Sweden is easier I THINK NOT DaC conveniently forgets the 32 riders that average more in Sweden than they do in GB (including his beloved Stead - an excreable 5.53 in Sweden) as against only 15 (including Lee Richardson and the oft mentioned Jonas Davidsson) who have better averages in Sweden. (Assuming a binomial model, then this is statistically significant at the 2% level) 8 out of the twelve GP riders who compete in GB and Sweden have lower averages in Sweden implying they find those leagues tougher. And 7 of those 8 are at least half a point lower in Sweden. Lindback's league average is over 2 points lower in Sweden! For any given rider there may be a number of reasons why they perform better in one country than another, but when the population as a whole is examined and produces such clear results there can be little argument. Let’s face it you have failed miserably to disprove the fact that the best, most demanding and truly representative league in the speedway world is in UK. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Au contraire I think with each post DaC just digs a deeper hole for himself. PS What does the fact that Bjorn Knutsson rode in the National League from 1959 to 1964 have to do with the relative strengths of the British and Swedish leagues in 2006? Edited September 13, 2006 by arnieg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adder Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 (edited) The only fair way to decide this is for the top 2 English riders in the Elite League averages at the end of the season get the places. Everyone would know where they stand then and may encourage some English riders to try a bit harder for their Elite League clubs during the season. Edited September 13, 2006 by Adder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazzman Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 The fact is we are talking about the British wildcard and the main contenders are all based and do the majority of their racing in the UK. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If you are going to simplify it that much, you still lose in saying Stead is the stronger rider. I can take that in account your claim that British wildcard could be dictated on GB form but on the same token, here is only round in the UK and the GPs have two rounds each in Sweden and Poland. So its only significant that we look at Harris and Stead's international averages in Poland and Sweden. Harris wins. Personally I feel the Polish and Swedish leagues have more weight and crediablity considering the quality of teams is much stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinstripe Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 GB is by far the weakest of the leagues. Look at the EL teams about 5 years ago and look through their lineups. Compare that with now!! Most EL teams now consist of 1 or 2 stars and the rest are mostly PL standard. Somethings gone seriously wrong!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 have another go at this one because it just doesn't make sense now if you were comparing like with like this might hold water... your second paragraph sums it up nicely, there are any number of reasons, the 'stronger league' one it isn't. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You have wilfully misquoted me here I said "for any given rider", not for an entire league of riders PS In Elitiseren play-offs yesterday Neils Kristian Iversen rode at reserve for Vastervik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salty Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 Much like Jimmy Saville last season I think the answer to your question is Arena, I'll just check.......... Yes here it is 7.78 ~ Andreas Jonsson (Arena Essex…SWE…26) after 18 rides <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry, drop a cog but your original question was in the present tense. I think you must be the only person who believes that AJ rides currently in the EL. I think the scale of the response shows you are in a very small minority who thinks that the EL is superior to the other 2 major leagues. Good argiung in favour of Steady, but I personally think that Bomber has outperformed him both in the individual qualifying and (marginally) the WTC. This combined with a disappointing display at Cardiff may well tip the balance in Bomber's favour. If BSI insist on having to seed 2 Brits I think it would be unjust for Steady to get the nod in front of Bomber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 (edited) GB is by far the weakest of the leagues. Look at the EL teams about 5 years ago and look through their lineups. Compare that with now!! Most EL teams now consist of 1 or 2 stars and the rest are mostly PL standard. Somethings gone seriously wrong!!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'd say something was seriously wrong 5 years ago. There were not enough teams and sides were totally unbalanced with should-be heatleaders riding as second strings. I'd say it was a weaker league then, even if there were more top riders in individual teams. Also, riders who would be heatleaders in the PL tend to be reserves in the EL - eg Mads Korneliussen, Richard Hall, Magnus Karlsson. Either that or they have moved into the top 5 and are struggling - eg Ostergaard and also Christian Hefenbrock, who would be a top liner in the PL and is now struggling after moving into Wolves' top 5. A lot of things effect average of riders - eg race format, variety of different shape tracks, number of teams in the league etc. I don't think you could say that any league is weaker or stronger than another. Edited September 13, 2006 by Grachan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 (edited) Well a few riders or people from riders teams have told me they think the Swedish league is the hardest and the Polish the most lucrative.We are only talking 3 or 4 here but they all say the same. As an aside and getting further from the topic here are the worrying attendance figures for the Elitserien.Taken from Holsted web page 2006: 234.138 2005: 272.651 2004: 257.478 2003: 256.261 2002: 241.033 Edited September 13, 2006 by iris123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz W Posted September 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 I see that Chris Harris equalled the Coventry track record tonight against Oxford and since the World Cup his average is up there with most of the GP riders. I think he should be given his chance next year, he can't be much worse than Richardson,Protasiewicz or Iversen. The main thing that would go against him would be the state of the tracks if Latvia last week is anything to go by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Blair Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 The only fair way to decide this is for the top 2 English riders in the Elite League averages at the end of the season get the places. Everyone would know where they stand then and may encourage some English riders to try a bit harder for their Elite League clubs during the season. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thats a bit of an unfair way to measure. As much as I dislike Bomber, he is improving from beginning to end of the season. His form is now GP standard, if NKI is the standard, its well above GP standard. A weak start to the season would preclude a capable rider. Maybe the last GS average would be more appropriate, or perhaps a poll of the BSPA to nominate the wild cards... Just some thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) You wouldn't have argued for Harris's inclusion a year ago, would you? No, so it's a godo job it's not last year! What has last year got to do with next years GP series? Tho I agree it'smore relevant than Egon Moller in 1983!!! Well if he has ridden 18 times in UK this season that means he qualifies as having ridden in the UK multiplied by 18. You are not very good at this!!!! You asked what current GP top 8 rider RIDES in GB. Well Andreas does not RIDE in GB, he RODE in GB. Harris or Stead? Harris for me. EL averages are now Stead 8.13, Harris 7.90. Getting closer!! Edited September 16, 2006 by SCB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyM Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 No, so it's a godo job it's not last year! What has last year got to do with next years GP series? Tho I agree it'smore relevant than Egon Moller in 1983!!!<{POST_SNAPBACK}> If you'd troubled yourself to read the context, the point would have been clear : The rider in best current form is not necessarily the best rider in the longer term. Is Harris automatically a better GP performer than Stead because his current form is better? No! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted September 16, 2006 Report Share Posted September 16, 2006 Maybe we should give Phil Morris a Gp place. Froget current form and past results, we just don't know what he might do until we give him a chance!! You have to use something to work out who to use, so why not current form (eg, this years averages)? Or do you suggest picking on looks? Age? Shoe size? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyM Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 If he were to qualify through a fair and open qualification process, good luck to him - he will have proved on the track that he's worthy of a place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subedei Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 (edited) I see Stead scored a massive 2+1 points in his most recent outing for Torun (in the same meeting team mate Wieslaw Jagus - someone who can actually QUALIFY for the GPs - scored 12+1). Yes, bang Stead in the GPs and let's all have a good laugh. Edited September 17, 2006 by Subedei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 (edited) If he were to qualify through a fair and open qualification process, good luck to him - he will have proved on the track that he's worthy of a place. I agree. So as the top 8 in the GP's qualify, , they ned 7 more rider, so the top 7 in the GP qualifiers. amazingly, a certian Mr C. Harris managed to come 5th!!! Where was Simon Stead? About 11th I believe! Edited September 17, 2006 by SCB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanisnumber1 Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 I think that we must go with youth, to help GB for the future, so must be Chris Harris, not sure Simon Stead is strong enough at this level yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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