British Selection For 2007

[G the Bee]

I appreciate you are a fan of Stead, just as I am a fan of Bomber.......and I do enjoy a debate. However I still think you're clutching at straws.

 

For the record, I'll say that I don't think Bomber is the most improved rider this year. Olly Allen, for me, gets that accolade. But it has nothing to do whether Bomber or Stead get a GP call up. It's irrelevant. So let's ignore most improved rider arguments shall we?

 

Yes, Stead's average in GB is marginally better than Bombers but I think Bomber will haul him in by the end of the season.

 

Scores in the actual meetings between BV and Cov are taken into account when calculating averages. You can't count them twice. You also forgot to mention that in the meeting Chris scored 4 at Brandon, he only completed 2 rides and in the meeting he scored paid 5 at Belle Vue, he had just returned from tonsillitis and had barely eaten for a week (it's understandable that you might have been unaware of this though). However, by my calculations (discounting double point rides and including bonus points) in all meetings they have ridden in together Stead has scored 80 points from 39 rides, averaging 8.21 and Bomber has scored 71 points from 37 rides averaging 7.67. A difference of just 0.54 in favour of Stead. Are you really going to argue (especially when you take into account the mitigating factors above) that a difference of just half a point makes Stead a clear cut choice for GP qualification above Chris? When they have met on track, more often than not Bomber has beaten Stead this year. The GP is an individual event so this surely favours Bomber.

 

You can't seriously argue we should discount foreign leagues. The Swedish and Polish leagues are certainly as strong as GB's and Bomber's average is two points higher and over 1 1/4 points higher in each league respectively. The form of Jonas Davidsson in Sweden does not mean that the Swedish League somehow lacks credibility. It means that Jonas Davidson is not bringing his Swedish form to GB for some reason.

 

As for the World Cup, I am sure you are aware that Stead's average is only higher in the World Cup because he did not ride in the much more competitive final. To get a fair reflection you must calculate their averages in the meetings they both rode in! Nice try though!

 

Steady, not Bomber, had a poor meeting at Cardiff in front of BSI.

 

Steady, not Bomber, had a poor meeting in the GP qualifier in front of BSI.

 

If you don't think Bomber is capable of riding at 1 or 5, take a look at his recent form. Since Chris has held the Bees captaincy, in the absence of Rory and Scott, he has averaged 10.83 a meeting. The only reason Chris moved from the 1/5 positions was that he had a slow start to the season, which was made worse through illness and mechanical trouble. This is partly why Rory overtook him in the Bees averages. Fair play to Rory, he's had a good season. To all intents and purposes though Chris has been fulfilling the second heat leader role for Coventry since Rory's unfortunate injury and you won't hear too many complaints about his performances from the Bees fans.

 

I feel bad about criticising Stead because I like him. We need both Bomber and Stead in the GP in the years to come. I just don't think, at this moment in time, he is as good as Bomber. You clearly do, but, aside from the fact that over the course of the season (so far) Stead's form for Belle Vue has been marginally better than Bomber's for Coventry I don't see that you have any other evidence to back up your claim. If, by the end of the season, Bomber does catch Stead in the GB averages, what other reasons could you give for Stead's inclusion ahead of Bomber in the GP's?

[G the Bee]

I’m a fan of both riders and would like to see both in the GP next season. That is highly unlikely though in which case Steady has the greater claim.

 

The improved rider thread was just another Bomber for GP thread, why don’t you post your comments about Bomber not being the most improved on that thread?

 

While Bomber is taking the easier rides at 2, 3 or 4 he should improve his average. Steady is maintaining his average at No.1. It follows that the gap should be closing. While Bomber was at 1 or 5 he was out of his depth. The easier races have helped him to up his confidence and he has had a couple of good meetings since. There are no easy races in the GP to help boost his confidence though.

 

Injuries, illness and EFs are a fact of life, all riders suffer from one or the other through the season. Steady has picked up a couple of nasty knocks this season. You probably saw one of them when he was assaulted by Ulamek while winning the EL Pairs.

 

The overseas leagues carry less relevance for British riders because they are overseas and they race fewer meetings meaning one bad or one good meeting can skew the figures. I didn’t completely discount them but if you had to pick a league to represent world speedway relatively few would choose the Polish or Swedish league ahead of the EL.

 

Steady’s WTC average is only higher because he scored more points per ride. To say anything else is pure conjecture. By the same reasoning you could say Steady had a better British GP than Bomber, no it doesn’t make sense does it?

 

Steady and Bomber will be in the GPs for years to come, I expect both to well. With the right equipment they can spearhead a promising crop of British lads coming through with Bridger, Kennett, Allen and Wrighty making good progress this season.

 

Next season maybe one season too soon for both of them but the chances are one will find himself offered a GP wildcard that should be Steady without doubt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I still think your argument has holes in it, but it's all about opinion isn't it. The problem with statistics is you can always spin them to suit an argument!

 

You place a lot of emphasis about Simon riding as a heat-leader. However, I can see that Stead did not move into the number 1 role until July 1st. Up until that time he was riding outside a heat-leader position. All this time, Bomber was at 1 or 5. Bomber moved out of a heatleader position at the same time as Stead moved into one. For March, April, May and June Chris rode as a heat-leader and Stead did not. For July and August and the few weeks of this month Stead has ridden as a heat leader (but with injuries to Schlein and Nicholls so has Bomber for much of this time too). If anyone's average is skewed because of easier rides then it is not Bomber's.

 

With two GP's in Sweden on permanent Swedish tracks would you not argue that form in Sweden was more relevant than form in GB (where a GP is held only once, and on a temporary track at that)?

There are also many people who would argue that Sweden and Poland are stronger leagues than GB. They can make quite a convincing argument. Look at the Luxo Stars, VMS Elit and Vastervik teams as examples. Their teams are so much stronger than British Elite League teams. If you score well in Sweden, you have earned your money!

 

I can't accept your WTC argument. Take the two meetings Bomber and Stead appeared in together and Bomber clearly outperformed Stead. At the risk of sounding harsh, if Chris had been dropped from the final too, then he would have had a better average (by the way I didn't think dropping Stead was the right thing to do)! You are right about conjecture though. Stead could have riden in the final and scored 0. Or he could have scored double figures. That's why, to get a fair reflection, you can only look at the meetings they appeared together in.

 

My point is this. In your earlier posts you said that there clearly is no contest between Bomber and Stead for a GB place. We all have our favourites but I hope my posts have shown that if BSI decide to look at Chris and Simon, Bomber can very much contest Stead for a place.

 

To sum up though, I think your point about next season being a season to early for both of them is spot on. There is no rush to make up the numbers. Both hopefully still have years ahead of them.

 

Anyway, nice to debate with you. That's what the forum is all about. I'm off to Brandon now. Let's see if Bomber can beat Nicki Pedersen again and, more importantly, see if Bees can put in a good performance against Eastbourne. Should be a good one.

[Subedei]

I’m a fan of both riders and would like to see both in the GP next season. That is highly unlikely though in which case Steady has the greater claim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Simon Stead will never, ever be a GP standard rider. Not ever, That's to say never.

 

Steady and Bomber will be in the GPs for years to come, I expect both to well. With the right equipment they can spearhead a promising crop of British lads coming through with Bridger, Kennett, Allen and Wrighty making good progress this season.

 

Next season maybe one season too soon for both of them but the chances are one will find himself offered a GP wildcard that should be Steady without doubt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Never, not ever, I repeat, in the case of Stead.

[Pinstripe]

Harris a much brighter prospect than Stead. Without a shadow of a doubt.

[AndyM]

Lots of shadows of doubt, I'm afraid. Harris is having a better run than Stead at the moment. Last year it was the other way around. You wouldn't have argued for Harris's inclusion a year ago, would you?

 

Next year, who knows?

[f-s-p]

Simon Stead will never, ever be a GP standard rider. Not ever, That's to say never.

Never, not ever, I repeat, in the case of Stead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So when do you think Simon Stead will be good enough to make it in the GP's?

 

I'll take it that this is thread where to ask why Lee R. withdrew from the Latvian gp?

Edited September 11, 2006 by f-s-p

[Hazzman]

I didn’t completely discount them but if you had to pick a league to represent world speedway relatively few would choose the Polish or Swedish league ahead of the EL.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats rubbish mate. When the Swedish and Polish are a lot more stronger than the Elite League with the 40 pts limit. Why do the big riders choose them two countries?

[AndyM]

More money? Greater ambition and opportunity? Less travel? More convenient to fit in with their remaining schedule? ...Or the snotty attitude of British promoters?

[arnieg]

How many of the top eight in the GP don't ride in the EL?

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Assuming a minimum of 6 appearances then 10 GP riders* have been riding in all three leagues

 

3 have been absent from UK (Jonsson, Gollob and Hampel)

2 have not been riding in Poland (Lindback & Zagar)

and only Jason Crump has not been a Swedish regular.

 

So by your own ctiteria the UK is the weakest of the three leagues

 

Comparison of riders averages suggest that there is little difference in strength between the three leagues.

 

I just find your attitude extemely blinkered - apparently if it doesn't happen on your dorstep it doesn't count!

 

*the original 15 riders including Rickardsson plus Andersen

[AndyM]

TR wasn't riding in the UK when he won his last title.

[Jeff.]

TR wasn't riding in the UK when he won his last title.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Neither was Hans Nielsen in 1995, Egon Muller in 1983, Anders Michanek in 1974, Bjorn Knutsson in 1965.

 

Without a shadow of a doubt the so called British Elite League is the weakest of the three major leagues

[Jeff.]

Our survey said DE DERR!

 

As you answered the original question.

 

All four rode in UK, the only one I can't remember seeing ride in person was Knutsson.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

At the top end I would probably agree with you, we do have our share of top riders. The British Elite League though has a tendency to be crammed with dross at the lower end where the Polish and Swedisg Leagues carry a bit more strength throughout the order

[AndyM]

2005

ARENA-ESSEX

10.40 ( 15 ) ~ Tony Rickardsson ~ 9.80 ( 20 ) ~ 10.06 9.91

 

Not a full season granted, but he did become Arena's first World Champion I believe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But he wasn't riding for Arena when he won the Championship, which was the key question.

[Hazzman]

13 Riders out of the 15 regulars ride in Poland with Zagar contracted to ride when he wants.

 

12 riders out of the 15 GP regulars ride in GB.

 

14 riders out of the 15 GP regulars ride in Sweden with Crump contracted to ride when he wants.

 

Britain loses out.

 

This is including Andersen, excluding Rickardsson. Temporary spells in the UK dont count.

 

Thats the top 15 riders in the World (debatable but its the way some idle thumb in the FIM sees it). Main riders should be contracted to the main leagues if they want to suceed.

 

Lets look at the second tier of riders, wild cards.

 

3 out of 8 ride in Britain (Kasprzak, Stead, Lindgren)

 

7 out of 8 ride in Poland

 

6 out of 8 ride in Sweden.

 

Britian loses out again, look through the GP Qualifier Final, its a similar story.

[AndyM]

sorry to be pedantic on this but Rickardsson did ride in the UK. He did ride in the UK the season he won each of his titles.

 

It is a fact that to be world champion if you have never ridden in a UK league your chances are currently around 1 in 60!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But for the second half of the season, during which he actually became World Champ, he was not riding for Arena, therefore he cannot be considered Arena's first world champ. QED!

[Hazzman]

I am going to take the top 3 averages of each league, the league which has the lowest three should be the hardest.

 

 

UK

Crump 11.28, Adams 10.61, Andersen 10.52

32.31

 

Sweden

Adams 10.51, N.Pedersen 10.35, Hancock 9.74

30.60

 

Poland

Crump 10.65, N.Pedersen 10.15, Hancock 9.88

30.68

 

How come Crump, Adams and Andersen find so much easier to acculamate a bigger average in UK because the opposition is weaker.

[Subedei]

Not bad but all the current top 8 ride in UK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Would you care to enlighten me as to where in the UK Andreas Jonsson rides?

[arnieg]

Which of the three questions are you trying to answer?

Either you didn't understand the question or you are just thick?

 

For your benefit here are the questions again

 

How many of the top eight in the GP don't ride in the EL?

 

How many of the 'big riders' (but not quite big enough because they don't ride in the EL) don't ride in the EL?

 

Who was the last World Champion not to have ridden in UK?

 

Each question requires a numerical answer please, I'll give you a clue, the answer to question is less than 1.

 

No extra marks will be awarded for talking bo!!ock$

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well it is hardly worth having a discussion with someone who has so little regard for facts.

 

You seem to get really upset when evidence is presented that challenges your preconceived position

 

I understood your statement perfectly well and how can you call me thick without knowing anything about me other than the fact that I have the temerity to suggest that there may be flaws in your arguement

[Subedei]

Much like Jimmy Saville last season I think the answer to your question is Arena, I'll just check..........

 

Yes here it is

 

7.78 ~ Andreas Jonsson (Arena Essex…SWE…26) after 18 rides

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

After 18 rides? 18 rides? You class 18 rides as riding in the UK? Sorry, but that's risible. And Andreas Jonsson missed roughly half Arena Essex's meetings during his stay with the club.

 

Can we now get back to the subject that Steady should be given a wildcard next season?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Do you SERIOUSLY want to make British speedway a laughing stock by having Simon Stead in the GPs - he'll never ever be GP standard.

[RandleTheBee]

Seems people have deviated from the point of this thread.

 

My brother does exactly the same thing as what is going on in this thread.

 

When he is losing in a discussion, he changes the subject and defends his point on that rather than the original point people were discussing.

 

You then carry on arguing over some small petty thing you forget what it is you were talking about in the first place.

 

I believe this is called 'Deflecting'