Joester Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 In England/Britain the team line-ups are organised with top 2 riders at number 1 and 5 and bottom 2 riders at 6 and 7. And I was just wonder how the line-ups are organised in Poland and Sweden. Cheers Joester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateusz Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Poland: 6 & 7 must be riders U-21, 8 must be U-23. We don't have any CMAs etc. so you can put anyone in places 1 - 5, of course including U-21s. Sweden: no idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anders Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Mateusz has provided the info from Poland so I´ll give the Swedish info: A Swedish team consist of 7 riders with an optional number 8 who doesn´t have any scheduled rides. Riders 6 & 7 must have lower averages than riders 1-5. Rider 8 must be a Swedish junior with the lowest average of the 8 riders in the line-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pollyanna Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 Poland: 6 & 7 must be riders U-21, 8 must be U-23. We don't have any CMAs etc. so you can put anyone in places 1 - 5, of course including U-21s. Sweden: no idea <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ___________________________________________________________________ How many foreign riders are allowed in each Polish team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joester Posted August 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 (edited) Also how do you work out the Swedish averages because I believe they are done very different to this country Edited August 30, 2006 by Joester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateusz Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 (edited) ___________________________________________________________________ How many foreign riders are allowed in each Polish team? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> As many as you can afford to sign.. There's no limit apart from max 2 GPs riders in each team. Edited August 30, 2006 by Mateusz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joester Posted August 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Also how do you work out the Swedish averages because I believe they are done very different to this country <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Anybody??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f-s-p Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 It was discussed a few weeks ago, find it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joester Posted August 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 It's not there anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anders Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 The excellent Speedway FAQ website gives all the information you need in the jungle of Swedish averages: http://www.speedway-faq.org/swedish.html#teamfmtn I can´t explain it really, it´s too difficult to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joester Posted September 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 (edited) Thanks Anders I've been looking at it and what an odd way to work them out, much much easier here. Edited September 3, 2006 by Joester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Meynell Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 (edited) I've been looking at it and what an odd way to work them out, much much easier here. The Swedish way of doing the averages is fairly sensible if you're going to use them for team building. The problem is that they make it more complicated than it needs to be, and their formula seems to have an error which can potentially result in minus averages. The main problem with the British way of doing things, is that we keep the starting GSAs for 12 matches before new ones are issued. This means they apply for two or even three months without changing, and when the new GSAs are finally issued, they can change quite dramatically from those at start of the season. Even worse, some riders don't ride enough matches during a season to get a new average, so end-up retaining one from two or more seasons ago. The Swedish system attempts to incorporate an element of a rider's average at the start of the season into their current average, but this gradually has less importance as a rider completes more matches. In other words, assuming a team rides 18 matches during the season (as they do in the Swedish Elite League), after one match a rider's new average would be made-up of 17/18ths of their starting average, and 1/18th of their actual average. After 9 matches it would 9/18ths of their starting average, and 9/18ths of their actual average. If they manage to ride all 18 matches, their final average would be their actual average. The main advantage is that a current average can always be calculated for a rider regardless of how many matches they've actually ridden in. It also makes manipulation of the points limit much more difficult, although it's less of an issue in Sweden anyway as the starting averages apply all season for team building purposes. There was a program available on the web somewhere that automatically calculate Swedish averages for you, but I can't seem to find it anymore (I have a copy myself). As I said though, an erroneous formula seems to be used, and there is a much simpler way of calculating things anyway. Edited September 3, 2006 by Kevin Meynell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyM Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Blimey! It's simpler to calculate PAYE, judging by that. Millward's rule of thumb: if an 8-year old can work out the rules and calculate a rider's current average from riding stats, it's fine. Anything worse is too complex by half and needs to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Meynell Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Blimey! It's simpler to calculate PAYE, judging by that. I don't think it's any worse than having a points limit where some riders are on current averages, some on assessed averages, and some on averages from years ago. For that matter, how does one explain how Belle Vue's averages added-up to 42.34 points in September when the points limit is 40 points? The fans don't need to be troubled with calculating the averages, anymore than they need to know how to calculate their PAYE. I'd bet the vast majority of cricket fans have no idea how to work out batting and bowling averages, strike rates, and test ratings. The most important thing is simply that they have some recognisable connection to the sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyM Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 Speedway fans have always been keen statisticians, and kids certainly like to be able to work out how a figure has been calculated - as I did when I was young. To say, "ah well, it's very complicated so just trust the wise people at the BSPA, they know what they're doing" isn't an answer of any sort - the process must be clear and simple to understand. The more opaque the system, the greater the possibility of rigging, mistakes in the calculations and inconsistency. Oh, and anyone can work out cricket batting and bowling averages from the scores alone. It's followed the same rules for centuries and it's open for all to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Meynell Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 the process must be clear and simple to understand. The Swedish approach could be relatively simple and clear to understand, but the problem is they've made it more complex than it actually needs to be. If you're just using averages to casually compare riders, then straightforward averages are fine. However, there are a lot of problems with using unadulterated averages in conjunction with the points limit, and factored averages would go some way to solving those problems. It's followed the same rules for centuries and it's open for all to see. They actually haven't, but I'd agree that straight batting and bowling averages are relatively well understood (although I bet many people don't know that an innings is not counted if a batsman is not out). However, I seriously doubt many people know how to calculate strike rates, economy rates, test rankings, and as for Duckworth-Lewis targets, well... Even in speedway, the method of average calculation has changed over the years. The CMA was only invented in the 1960s, and isn't especially intuitive given that it's based on a 12-point maximum and riders often score more than 12 points in a meeting. It just depends on which statistics are pushed over the years, rather than their inherently complexity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyM Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 While I have to agree about the D/L method, I think you'll find very few if any regular cricket fans who don't know about the not out innings calculation - though we were only talking about averages, not strike rates or anything else. The fact that speedway can make its one commonly quoted set of statistics impossible to reproduce by the average fan speaks volumes. I was indeed referring to the fact that the method of speedway average calculations being changed at regular intervals, where the cricket rules have been very consistent in that respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Meynell Posted September 3, 2006 Report Share Posted September 3, 2006 While I have to agree about the D/L method Sure, but the point is that the D/L method is generally agreed to be a fairer method of determining the result of rain-affected matches than the much-easier-to-calculate run rate method. Whilst I generally agree in keeping things as simple as possible, sometimes more complexity is required to achieve a fairer system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.