Interesting Development

[Neil H]

At the training session run by the legendary Ivan Mauger at Buxton today, a proper 250cc Jawa speedway bike was tried out by many of the youngsters. Several of those present were wondering if this could become a starting point for the very young kids (9-13 year olds) before they progress onto 500's.

 

Maybe some of the lads could give us their opinions on here as they have had first hand knowledge of how it rides.

[cinderfella]

At the training session run by the legendary Ivan Mauger at Buxton today, a proper 250cc Jawa speedway bike was tried out by many of the youngsters.  Several of those present were wondering if this could become a starting point for the very young kids (9-13 year olds) before they progress onto 500's.

 

Maybe some of the lads could give us their opinions on here as they have had first hand knowledge of how it rides.

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Why just the young lads? Maybe a smaller engine could cut down costs in general.

[Vince]

Why just the young lads? Maybe a smaller engine could cut down costs in general.

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I would suggest that it would do exactly the opposite. A small engine would have to be more highly tuned and therefore more fragile.

[sCATygirl!]

Why just the young lads? Maybe a smaller engine could cut down costs in general.

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!!!!!!!!!! Cut down costs??????? Knowing Jawa I bet these engines are just as expensive (if not more) than a 500cc

 

Will probably be ok as long as the youngsters are still allowed to ride a 500, if they want. If not I bet there will be a lot of p'd off parents out there who's youngster already has a 500 but will not be allowed to ride it, not everyone can afford to get another bike/engine.

 

Be interesting to see what happens!!

[Neil H]

I would suggest that it would do exactly the opposite. A small engine would have to be more highly tuned and therefore more fragile.

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It took all the stick that the boys could throw at it and coped well.

 

 

Will probably be ok as long as the youngsters are still allowed to ride a 500, if they want. If not I bet there will be a lot of p'd off parents out there who's youngster already has a 500 but will not be allowed to ride it, not everyone can afford to get another bike/engine.

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From what I could pick up, it was a standard Jawa set-up and you could unbolt the 250 motor and put a 500 in its place.

 

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I think the aim might be for these to be a rider's first speedway bike and then progressing to the bigger engine size. Could be a worthwhile project especially for the kids who are physically strong enough to handle the power of a 500 until they are a bit older.

 

Would still like to know what Dan, George, Brendan and the rest thought about it.

[Wildcat Steve]

George is out for the evening at Youth club but I can tell you the lads thought it was great. It rides like a 500 but when you hit a grippy patch it does not lift and throw you into the fence and Neil was right it took all the stick the lads could throw at it

Dont think anyone with a 500 licence would not be forced to ride a 250.

 

It has to be looked at and see what direction we should take with it.

From my point of view it seems and ideal step from the 125 and fills that gap so riders dont jump straight onto a 500. Young and older novices can learn the skills they need from the 250 Ivan was also impressed with it.

 

The 250 could lead to another dimention to racing with a 250 comp. We would consider a 250 engine for another class as the 250 drops into a standard frame.

they are great fun the lads had a great time on it many thanks to Vaclav Verner for bring the bike to Buxton. He seemed to be having fun with it too even with all the rain dont think he ever stopped smiling

[MONKEYBOY]

I totaly agree with steve it was a great little bike and we were all testing it to the max.

[Vince]

When I said it would be more fragile I meant if it were to be used for adult racing as Cinderfella suggested. The first thing any PL or above standard rider would do is tune the thing to death to make it rev harder as that would be the only way to get more power. That would increase costs because the engine would need more maintenance than a 500.

I think a 250 would be excellent for youth racing or beginners and certainly a lot better than the usual 125's which I think are pretty dangerous on full size tracks. Aren't they already using this engine quite a lot in America?

[RAPIDFIRE]

The engine on the day did 340 laps and did seem to be coping well with the buxton track and Brendan had only good things to say on it,apparently it revs to 11000rpm and from what Vaclav was gesturing it goes better when being reved really hard.

[morganbike]

Daniel thought it was a great little engine but didnt have start line grunt or any power left on the over rev to get you out of trouble.It had to be ridden flat out and suited the small water logged Buxton track.When geared for a large track in the dry it would struggle big time.

The standard set up was fine but the chasis is too big for an under 11 year old.Vaclav Verner said jawa have no intensions of making a junior chassis so RTS or JHR etc would have to make one for small riders.Daniel is 12 and a half and can just ride an adult chassis.Joe Haines still rides a JHR junior chassis at 14 yrs old.

Its a great step up from 125 but as we discussed at the track there will still be no-where to ride it competatively unless you want to go out on your own or are riding/training with someone who has one, as mixing of classes is not allowed !.

This is the problem with the 350 as Daniel and George found out.You can go to do 2nd halves but have to ride round on your own.

It is a reliable engine and if introduced into any competition it should be run as standard and no tuning allowed.Hard to enforce but maybe carb inserts can be used to keep the power the same for all the engines.

I would advise someone to buy one if they are finding a 500 too much or have never been on a 500 no matter how old they are.

Would we buy one NO.Its a step backwards from what we set out to do.Ride a 500.Even if the under 15's changed to 250 for next season for some bizzare reason I still would not have one.

Are they any safer than a 500 NO.Riding speed is still as fast and this is not the solution/answer to help prevent accidents happening to youth riders.

Phil

[cinderfella]

I would suggest that it would do exactly the opposite. A small engine would have to be more highly tuned and therefore more fragile.

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Althoughj it wasn't a Jawa, Weslake or recognised brand of speedway engine, Brian Andersen tested a 250cc bike back in the early 90's.

 

Yamaha

 

The above link is worth a read and the whole site is one of the best speedway sites around IMHO!

 

I appreciate that having to re-kit riders with new engines and spares would initially be expensive but in the longrun surely things would level out after a few years.

[iris123]

We do have a 250cc 2 stroke class here in Germany,but from what little i've seen of it,it is a hobby class for "fat blokes" Not a step up from the 80 or 125cc.

Results here

[Ben]

there are a few jawa 250cc engines being used on the grasstrack scene over here.

Its an ideal opportunity for the youth classes as it states in the acu handbook that a 250 four stroke engine can be used with the 125 intermediate class (mostly made up of 2 strokes). however I competed in a grasstrack at danebury last weekend and there was a 250cc jawa bike there. very quick out of the gate in the early heats but as the day progressed and the track became more grippy it seemed to struggle.

[neil_L]

Can't see 250cc engines as the way to go. You could probably get a 250 to rev like a flymo but the power will be peaky and probably dangerous. There would be big costs to already cash strapped families. If we seriously wanted to collectivity help reduce costs whilst maintaining safety then I'd say look at having a standard lower compression ratio on all junior 500 machines. The cost of lowering the compression ratio should be minimal . The engines will run with less power and thus lower the stress / wear. Engines would last much longer and less likely to drop pistons and snap rods. It would also be interesting to run experiments with Pump grade petrol. Ok, the compression would need knocking right down and smaller jets in the carbs. But this again would have the desired effect of reducing power with minimal costs. There's also the saving in fuel costs. And crude refined petrol doesn't corrode like methanol.

 

why go to the trouble of re-equipping all juniors with totally different engines when just some simple retune mods could be the way to go.

Edited October 19, 2005 by neil_L

[sCATygirl!]

why go to the trouble of re-equipping all juniors with totally different engines when just some simple retune mods could be the way to go.

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Because Jawa etc wouldn't make any money out of doing that

 

Let's just hope the powers that be are not thinking of making it compulsary for the youngsters to have one of these. If they are I know one young lad who will not be getting one (cannot afford it) and will be very dissappointed if he isn't able to ride.

 

Suppose we will just have to wait and see.

[Wildcat Steve]

The idea is it would be a the step up from a 125. The lads tested the 250 and it did not seem "peaky and probably dangerous." The view was totally the opposite

 

Dont think the idea was to force riders to get one but more to add another dimention to racing. Rider can learn the art of controlling the bike on something that handles like a 500 without the lift and drive that would dump them in the fence.

 

A lot of people were saying that we should be using the 80cc bikes used in Sweden but when used at Poole they were to small for our tracks. We are not in the position here of having plenty of junior tracks in this country.

The 250 engine fits straight into a 500 frame so you are looking at standard speedway parts you are also setting bikes up like a standard speedway bike.

 

If the 250 gets the go ahead we will be looking at what classes and meetings were available and when to maybe buy a 250 engine and run classes/meetings alongside the 500 meetings we will already be doing with George stepping into the CL mid season next year.

[cinderfella]

Is there any reason why the present 350 Jawa isn't used more widely for u15s etc. ?

 

It is obviously popular on the grass track scene so perhaps if there were events on shale for that size of engine some grassers may be tempted to have a go.

[Vince]

I think there is a bit of a misconception that a smaller/ less powerful engine is better for novices or youngsters. Generally a powerful engine that spins easily is much safer. Ask any of the kids who have made the step from 125 to 500 which is easier to ride fast. For sure lowering the compression ratio can make a bike very difficult to ride as it wants to drive all the time, when an engine is set up like that the throttle has to be kept on which is exactly what novices don't want. It is engines set up the same as professional racers that cause the problems. A quick and easy fix would be to make all kids run 12lb of air in the rear tyre or harder rear tyres. The bike would always want to spin and the kids would have to learn throttle control to make it go forwards. It would do away with bikes lifting and the crashes would mainly be harmless lowsides.

Ask any motocross rider whether a 250 four stroke is cheaper to run than a 500. The answer is a definite no, all the parts are much the same price but the engine has to work harder so wears more quickly. Smaller engines are really only good on small tracks. The 250 might have been great at Buxton but it wouldn't be so good at Sheffield.

I think the perfect answer would be to have tracks of 150 to 200 yards for kids to work through 80 -125 -250 and then step up to a 500 for full size tracks. However as there is a lack of such tracks available I don't think that the current set up of having riders on a 500 when they are capable is at all bad.

Edited October 19, 2005 by Vince

[whowasthatberntpersson]

When I said it would be more fragile I meant if it were to be used for adult racing as Cinderfella suggested. The first thing any PL or above standard rider would do is tune the thing to death to make it rev harder as that would be the only way to get more power. That would increase costs because the engine would need more maintenance than a 500.

I think a 250 would be excellent for youth racing or beginners and certainly a lot better than the usual 125's which I think are pretty dangerous on full size tracks. Aren't they already using this engine quite a lot in America?

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125's on full size tracks? Is this true?

 

In Australia the 350cc bike has just been commissioned for racing, most under 16's continue to ride the 125's though with just a few of the bigger kids on 250's and now a handful with 350's.

 

Only the 350's are ridden on full size tracks, everything else is on the junior tracks.

 

I think the 125 bikes are fine until a kid gets too tall, then they really do need a larger frame.

 

To be honest most who make the step up to the 500's from 125's cope ok. Kids here stay on the 125's because of the competition, more riders to race against.

Edited October 20, 2005 by whowasthatberntpersson

[TMGracing]

In the USA We have been using the 250's for years. We would get the 350 motors and restoke them to 250's.We also convinced Jawa after dong some exhibition rides for them to build the 250 straight from the factory.

 

I'm not sure about the Newest 250 motor that Jawa has put out but the older ones we used BZ carbs and King mufflers to help with more power.

 

The kids here in the states are able to ride them from the age of ten until their 16th birthday.

 

Ryan Fisher and Billy Janniro rode these motors for many years.In fact Ryan still holds the record in the USA for three consecutuive championships in a row.