Costs Of Speedway A Joke

[pablo133]

the cost must be massive to be competitive buying new engines then having to spend a fortune on them before you can race is a joke, the rules shoud be changes where by say 2007 only bog standard engines with NO modifications can be used including carbs etc this would give riders 2 seasons to sort out new standard engines where the old modified will be well worn out.

this would mean a massive saving to riders in the long term as blown engines would hopefully become reduced and think how the racing would improve youd have close races and only ability will shine through not just gaters winning with the fastest bikes . it would be interesting to see what the riders think would it work or not ??

[AndyM]

Pablo, I've been saying for years that machinery should be standardised, slowed down and simplified to cut costs and make the kit more reliable and longer-lasting, all the more relevant in the light of what F1 is doing.

 

There would of course be more benefits too - it might equalise the field, make for greater entertainment value, put the emphasis back on skill and teamwork rather than out-and-out speed and hopefully cut injuries in the process.

 

The BSPA have had several opportunities to do this in the past, but have shied away every time. They did look into the idea of running a tender for the supply of all engines for a season from one factory (eg. Jawa or GM), but beat a hasty retreat when one (Jawa I think) threatened legal action. The bulk-buy standardisation should have been pursued, since it could have saved the sport an absolute fortune, but I can't see anyone taking it on now.

 

In my estimation, it would not be at all difficult to provide a machine specification that is much cheaper to buy and maintain, if anyone has the courage to do so. Why is this not on the promoter's agenda?

[cpbyles]

Pablo, I've been saying for years that machinery should be standardised, slowed down and simplified to cut costs and make the kit more reliable and longer-lasting, all the more relevant in the light of what F1 is doing. 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Excellent idea !! - How about we ban all 4-valves, dirt deflectors, laydowns and buy up all the old J.A.P motors we can find knocking around in sheds. We could make all riders wear just BLACK leathers with no Logo's on and admissions would then plummet to 1 shilling and sixpence and the Governing body could dictate who rides for which team - how about it promoters ?

[AndyM]

Obviously what I meant

 

You don't need to uninvent technology to simplify or standardise it, as proven by F1. But the alternative is costs spiralling out of control, speedway becoming uneconomic and contracting still further. Or maybe that's what you'd prefer, because the costs certainly aren't reducing at the moment!

[Trees]

cpbyles - sarcasm is the lowest form of wit

 

On the face of it standard engines seems the way to go to lower costs for the riders, trouble is not all standard engines perform the same which will obviously cause problems within a team.

 

Could a rider make enough adjustments to the bike to suit his style of racing if the engine was standard?

[cpbyles]

cpbyles - sarcasm is the lowest form of wit 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Absolutely, I forgot humour was frowned upon !!

 

The point is, there was a time when engines were virtually standard and riders only brought one machine to a meeting with a track spare available which was also standard. Well, that was the theory anyway. But then of course every rider altered a thing or two such as valve port sizes, bores etc and thus it was no longer standard.

 

They toyed around with the idea of the Honda not so very long ago with sealed engines so tampering couldnt happen. The type of standardisation you speak of would leave virtually no scope for adjustment for the individual rider. You can put limits on on an engines performance - you can never standardise it to the extent they are all exactly the same.

[Vince]

I think that from a riders point of view standardisation would be OK, it would still allow for timing, jetting, compression and cam changes which is all they would ever have to do. The problem woud be to police it, you couldn't logically seal engines because they would still need rebuilding from time to time and to check that an engine was standard would require a complete strip down. There is also the problem that 2 apparently identical engines can perform very differently and if they had to remain as built and you happened to buy the lemon you would be stuck with it. The 2 year time scale might also cause problems as there are a great many riders running around on engines that are 5 or 6 years old. The age isn't usually a problem as you keep replacing the internals anyway.

It's a great idea but I doubt that it could ever be enforced.

[Trees]

Absolutely, I forgot humour was frowned upon !!

No winked at actually

There is also the problem that 2 apparently identical engines can perform very differently

How do they work it in production bike racing?

Edited April 17, 2005 by Trees

[AndyM]

Offer riders in a race four identical bikes and let them choose one at random. Then it's pot luck which performs better or worse!

[cpbyles]

No winked at actually 

 

How do they work it in production bike racing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Point Taken

 

I can't see how Speedway can be compared to F1 or Production bike racing in whatever format simply because Speedway is the only form of Team event running on a League basis. Seven riders per team, 10 or whatever teams per league etc etc. Adds up to an awful amount of machines racing week in and week out in this country alone.

 

Any form of Standardisation would need to be Global and that in itself is an unrealistic proposition. And if we were to go down the road of using a pool of machines every meeting, who would meet the cost of buying, replacing and repairing these machines ? - the clubs themselves ? - I think not. Someone also mentioned the policing of such machines - more personel required, sounds to me like this is getting a more expensive idea than what we currently have.

 

On a final note, we have been looking at costs, but are we maybe looking in the wrong direction ? Taking into account inflation, by my reckoning a standard speedway machine of today is no more expensive than a JAP cost in the sixties, on the contary infact. The reason I mentioned black leathers in a previous post was to highlight the fact that sponsorship as we know it now was virtually non existent and the riders pay incredibly less, again taking inflation into account.

 

No matter what job you do, the pay is always deemed insufficient and unevenly

distributed - think I'll leave it at that !!

[Kevin Meynell]

There may be a case for standardising engines and components to reduce power, but a single manufacturer would do little to reduce costs. You'd just end-up in a monopoly situation as other manufacturers would drop-out of the market, and you'd be at the mercy of one supplier.

 

In addition, standardised sealed engines are not as 'equal' as some people seem to think. I race in a kart class which uses sealed engines that can only be maintained by approved dealers. Are they all the same? Are they hell! Furthermore, there are always whispers that certain dealers will make non-standard modifications for certain drivers who are in with them. It's certainly the case that some drivers seem to blow-up a high number of engines.

[Sir Jasper]

I dont neccessarily agree with the standardisation of engines in the top flights. A way to reduce costs for newer riders is to design a league with standardised equipment ie get a cheap engine deal for all conference riders , much like the formulas on the way up to f1, this then ensures all equipment is the same etc etc like formula 3 or formula BMW.

[Vince]

How do they work it in production bike racing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The mid pack guys run standard motors and the front guys have their engines blueprinted which leaves them as standard in theory but actually uses a large selection of parts and some machining to make the tolerances perfect. Blueprinting can be just as expensive (maybe more so) as what we would call tuning. I have seen 2 identically built car race engines run on a dyno on the same day and with the same carbs etc and one has produced nearly 5% less power than the other. Even Moto GP riders who have 2 supposedly identical bikes that have cost a fortune to put together inevitably find one to be better than the other.

[pablo133]

when i raced karts there was a class called britain for the standard engines and a class for the modified engines which was mega bucks this should be done in speedway especially for the lower leagues like premier and conference, random checks on engines and big fines would stop any cheating and think of the cost saving for the riders, even using worn tyres etc as long as everyone had the same rules to work from there would be no advantage

[AndyM]

There may be a case for standardising engines and components to reduce power, but a single manufacturer would do little to reduce costs. You'd just end-up in a monopoly situation as other manufacturers would drop-out of the market, and you'd be at the mercy of one supplier.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not if it was done as a competitive tender with a 12-month contract. If done professionally, it could save the speedway industry and absolute fortune. The alternative is for a much stricter machine specification to be issued to all (both) manufacturers and allow riders to select which label was on the box, but without the bulk purchasing element it could not achieve the same cost savings.

 

Whether or not this is desirable is a different question! I think it would be.

[Kevin Meynell]

Not if it was done as a competitive tender with a 12-month contract.

 

You cannot apply management consultancy principles to everything. There are what, a total of two engine manufacturers in speedway these days? Is one really going to bother to stay in the market if the other wins an exclusive deal? Didn't Dunlop decide the speedway market was no longer worth bothering about when Barum got the exclusive deal for tyres a few years ago.

 

without the bulk purchasing element it could not achieve the same cost savings.

 

The speedway market is too small to get much in the way of bulk purchasing savings. It might be possible to draw-up a standard specification and then allow any manufacturer to build to that, but I can't see how making life difficult for the few remaining suppliers is going to solve anything.

[Vince]

Been giving this some thought and what might be possible is to police all the ancilaries rather than the engines. If riders (in the CL) had to run standard Jawa frames, forks, clutches and carbs that could represent a substantial saving over some of the aftermarket equipment. It would be easy to see at a glance if a rider was running a different clutch or expensive plates, Jawa frames are considerably cheaper than others although many riders would complain that they don't like them. I would also guess that Antig, NuTrack, Stuha and JHR might not be best pleased with the idea. Then if there was a good supply of the standard Jawa flat slide carb (or maybe the dellorto round slide) there would not be very much point in spending a fortune on tuning engines. It would also mean that a rider could go and buy a competitive bike out of the crate for just over a couple of grand. It has to be said though that a new bike would probably be competitive anyway but riders wouldn't be happy with it.

Such a bike could represent a saving of several grand over a bike with all the extras and an engine from a well known tuner.

[pudding]

would six lap races alter the way engines are built ????? wouldnt they have to be more reliable i.e less tuned ??? which cuts costs , .

[Guest Jim Blanchard]

Interesting topic folks. Observations here rather than opinions.

 

In 'Superstocks' or any production based motorcycle racing, modifications are usually restricted to allow changes to only certain areas of the bikes whether it’s a private machine or a factory bike. Its passively policed I think, but if anyone protests or you seem to have an unfair advantage in anyway, a bike can be examined, engine stripped if need be and penalties incurred for breaking said rules.

 

There is a single make series going on at British Championship road racing events at present called the Yamaha Virgin R6 cup. All riders entered only qualify on age and experience criteria. They pay £18,000 a year to compete in the series (can bring in personal sponsors to cover part or all if it, as all rounds are televised this seems attainable) No more fees just turn up and race. The bikes are all the same with a lucky dip selection process for each round. At the end of the series they get to keep a bike. The overall winner is given a contract by Virgin Yamaha to ride in the next seasons British Superbikes races. The series is popular, exciting and brings on young riders.

 

Could not this be arranged along these lines for a speedway series? TV coverage would be required (not necessary live) and arranged. Then corporate sponsorship pursued to help run the series perhaps along the lines of the under 15/21 year old championships. Bog standard Jawa’s purchased hopefully at special prices for quantity and perhaps Jawa involvement too. All entrants to pay a set fee to be in the series and as per the R6 cup, personal sponsors aquired to assist with the one off entry fee. All bikes the same and supplied for the meeting on a lucky dip basis. The series champion to be given a team place in a conference or premier team the following season. Maybe pie in the sky, no doubt but I think if there is the will there could be a way. Does it have any viable credence or merit?

 

I think most MotoGp bike engines are rarely worked on at the track. Usually the top factories will not allow anything other than engine mapping changes, telemetry, at the circuit. Plus of course, suspension, tyres, chassis changes. Problem with an engine? Get another one out of the crate. They are so ‘bullet’ proof and reliable these days it is very rarely an occurrence.

 

Vince, how are speedway engines policed in terms of eligibility? Does the 'big motor' bogey ever come up now and if so are there the means to check at the tracks?

Edited April 21, 2005 by Jim Blanchard

[AndyM]

The speedway market is too small to get much in the way of bulk purchasing savings. It might be possible to draw-up a standard specification and then allow any manufacturer to build to that, but I can't see how making life difficult for the few remaining suppliers is going to solve anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How many engines are purchased over the course of a season? Even if the riders of one club got together and placed a single order with, say, Jawa, they should be able to negotiate a discount. The manufacturers have had things their own way for far too long.

 

PS. I am a management consultant, so you couldn't expect me to think any other way. However, don't tell me that speedway is special and unique and that the rules applied to other businesses are irrelevant - cost savings can be achieved everywhere!

Edited April 21, 2005 by AndyM