BOBBATH

Re Vandenberg, Francis and Keen (BTW glad to see a mention of Mike Keen, Sidney) I would say that PV tended to be somewhat better than the others-who were indeed middle order riders. I would say that PV might have been of the order of guys like Clive Featherby and Pete Jarman-maybe a little ahead of both. For example in the N0V 13 1964 issue of the Star. PV was just behind Jack Kitchen and just ahead of Ross Gilbertson at 10th with 9.37 in the PL averages (although this was before CMA's were used and I think included not just PL meetings but KO Cup and maybe regional leagues) I see Cyril had an average of 5.96 and Clive Hitch 5.00 (for Middlesbrough). According to this list PV was the top Newport rider ahead of Dick Bradley and Alby Golden. Some others in forumland (like BL65 ) may have more accurate data. In the first year of BL (the golden year of 65) PV had a CMA of 7.92- in third spot of the Newport averages behind Jackie Biggs and Dick Bradley(Dick's final season)., Cyril had a good year with a CMA of 7.48-only 5th of the Wolves riders though but I had forgotten they had such a well-balanced team that year Getting back to Mike- he had a CMA of 3.88 just behind Bob Kilby with a CMA of 4.12 in 1965- I think they were pretty neck and neck that year- Bob was regarded as the better prospect which in fact turned out to be true. However the first time I saw the Robins was at Somerton on 28th of May and Mike was amazingly third top scorer for the Robins behind Briggs (15 point max) and Broadbank (11 from rides-only point dropped to Bradley). Mike scored 5 and Bob 0(from 2 rides). That night Clive Hitch was replaced by Peter Sampson who has done so much for Speedway at his Paradise Wildlife Park-I see Peter scored 4- beating the Wasps riders Penniket and Erskine( no mean feat). Wasps won 41-37 undoubtedly due to Martin Ashby's absence(maybe injured?) On a personal note the Abbey Stadium was the first NL track I visited where I saw the Wasps lose to the Robins 48-30 (Sampson 4, Keen 3, Kilby 6). It was 17 July 1965-went on a Newport Supporters bus and the Severn bridge was not opened yet.. In 1968 went a couple more times to Blunsdon-always enjoyed the drive-went via Acton Turville, Minety , Malmesbury and all sorts of villages-very pleasant-one time I was behind Mike from Minety onwards-he had his bike strapped to the back of his car. About 15 years ago I tried to drive the same trip but the roads had changed so much I couldn't duplicate the exact route. But still managed a beer in the Cold Harbour pub. Wonder if Mike K. still lives in Minety? Sorry for the long post but Sidney's topic regenerated some happy memories-I really hope the Abbey Stadium keeps going.

In 1967 , working in Basildon for the summer, I went to the London tracks 3 times a week-spent all my wages on admissions and getting to London. So I regularly went to West Ham, Wimbledon and Hackney-where did I like going to the most??- (and I realise this is subjective). Hands down it had to be West Ham-would get off at Plaistow underground and walk down to Custom House-wonderful atmosphere and great track. What a stadium. Secondly for the experience had to be Hackney. Would get to Stratford underground then on a special speedway bus -up the street of a thousand smells(Carpenters Road) to the Wick. The program would always have an ad ""Get a better job in Hackney, where over 2,500,000 Matchbox toys are produced every week for children all over the world".. It was Lesney products. They were advertising for Tool Room Personnel, Experienced Bench Fitters and then it said LADIES! a wonderful choice of light well paid jobs to pick from. I wanted to apply for the latter -but failed the medical.. I assume Lesney is no longer there and that if Matchbox toys are still manufactured its in the third world( not being racist here-so please don't report me to the British Human Rights Commission). Anyway Hackney was a gritty experience with wonderful supporters and of course a super promoter. Hackney always struck me as the most working class of the tracks -so naturally I felt at home there. I am looking at my program of July 28th 1967 when Hackney hammered the dreaded Dons 57-21. Crowd went wild (so did I)-as Wimbledon seemed to be classier and posh(unfair comparison maybe but they certainly had better facilities). Their supporters club chairperson was Mrs. Dorothy Charles- Batson who I am sure was a super nice lady-but I am not sure there were any Hackney fans with double-barrelled names. Was anybody from forumland at that meeting-if so you will know that Les McGillivray scored a 12 point max., Bengt Jansson scored 11, Pratt and McKee both 10, Gerry Jackson 8, Brian Davies 4 and Malc Brown 2.. Sadly no Don won a race and the top scorer was Nygren with 9. Wot an evening for the Hawks fans. I should add that Plough Lane was a great stadium to visit and I mean no disrespect to the Dons -but it was great to see the underdogs triumph (sort of like an earlier version of Brexit)!!!!!!!!!!!

Sidney thanx for mentioning these folks, I note that Iris123 linked you to a couple of threads on this forum. The one on Peter Vandenberg was one I started and hope you enjoyed reading it-amazingly as per the British Final of 1965, Peter's claim to fame may have been denying Charlie Monk what turned out to be his only chance to appear in the World Final by unbelievably being the first rider in the championship rounds to beat Charlie- I can see it now-Peter made the gate and won that heat-the only points he scored all night. With all due respect to the late Peter-no question Charlie was the better rider and 9 times out of 10 would have beaten Peter. C'est la vie!! As regards Cyril, who I also commented on in the other thread Iris123 directed you to, I agree with the other comments-wot a gent-still lives in Newport apparently. Comment re Mike Watkin, another gent ,who I had the opportunity of speaking to in the Newport supporters club bar--in I think 1966. I got talking to him and he spent endless time chatting and answering various questions I had.. He was a true representative of speedway's golden years when the riders had a lot in common with the supporters. A very down to earth and pleasant gentleman. I hope Mike is still with us and in good health-if I ever met up with him I would definitely stand him a beer or even a brandy if he preferred. They don't make 'em like Mike anymore!! These riders should never be forgotten so thanx for bringing back my memories of them.

I think I know what has happened to most of the members of this great team e.g. who has passed away, what the others are doing etc. But one name crops up in my mind-Brian Leonard, does anyone know what Brian is doing these days-guess he would be in his early seventies (like some others of us!!)

My dad kept a corner shop in Cardiff 1958-63, I used to serve in the shop at age 11 selling all the brands of ciggies (probably not allowed for kids to sell them in nanny state Britain now). Anyway I think Astorias had come and gone by then-we certainly didn't sell 'em. The big brands were Woodbines, Park Drive(they were a little less expensive than other brands, and we would sell them in fives, tens and twenties) Players, Senior Service, Capstan etc. They were all untipped. Bristol were heavily advertised (Bristol is today's cigarette). I remember Strand starting out-their ad campaign was a guy by himself in a city at night and the slogan was "you're never alone with a strand"-apparently it failed because nobody wanted to be thought a loner (or as they now say in UK "Billy No Mates"). Actually I like being a loner and maybe I should start smoking 'em!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well I guess Ivan is the top SAL grad after all.I learn a lot from these posts. BTW does anybody recall what the Ringwood race jacket was?

Thanx folks, I think I knew about Mauger and that he didn't ride in an actual SAL meeting, but I certainly needed to be reminded of the others-how could I forget!! Excluding Mauger then , who do you think should be considered the most successful ever SAL graduate. Reckon Bob Andrews and Mike Broadbank stand out, and I would then have to say the champ is Mike with Bob a close second-although Bob gets honorable mention for best sense of humour!!

Off the top of my head I reckon the only rider who appeared in the SAL and who went on to appear in the World Final was Brian Brett-who retired much too early. Is this correct and if so does Brian therefore count as the most successful ever product of the SAL??

Tough to beat that team gustix-one of my favourite riders Alby Golden was in SAL, lost out as SAL Riders Champion to Ernie Lessiter one year-can't remember the team Alby was in though.

Thanx gustix-I do get depressed when I think of the old times and what speedway seems to be now. Let's recall it as it was -incidentally on youtube if you enter Stoke speedway there is a 4 part video posted called the History of Sun Street Speedway-its great. P.S. Re Caerphilly- it's the home town of Tommy Cooper and there is a statue of him there (Tommy Cooper was not a relation of Ron Cooper!!!)

I understand your point of view gustix- I had for a while an idea of visiting U.K. and going to the 3 tracks that I had never been to when I emigrated , and were still operating at the same venue all these years later-that would be Newcastle, Wolves and King's Lynn. But thought it best to leave them as I think they were in my imagination. The thought of the reduced capacity for example at Byker and the small attendances, the weird leathers plastered with ads,and what I think would be a depressing atmosphere I just couldn't face it. Like you I am keenly interested in speedway history but no enthusiasm for attending a modern meeting. Although as Iris123 said- I have nothing against London buses and in fact I don't have any friends interested in speedway left over 'ome!!

Many apologies Norbold, for my miserable attempt at humour I'd forgotten that you followed New X in Prov. League, but I'd thought that in your excellent book ""Pie and Mash" you'd mentioned that though Hackney was nearer to you, you followed West Ham. Thus I withdraw the ban unreservedly. Re your comments-good point re Bristol, although I thought Wolves in 1963 were not as good as Stoke who as you know were stripped of the title for using John Mills without appropriate permission. BTW Hackney in 1964 looked good for the title with that great heat leader trio of Pratt, Trigg and McGillivray until Newcastle charged thru and overtook them. Trigg was a favourite of mine and would always put on a good show at Newport (if memory serves Pratt always had a bit of trouble there-as many did.) Incidentally I visited Hackney a few times in 1967 and loved the track and enthusiastic crowd. So -many mea culpas for previous note , I hope this does not mean you will ask me to return my copy of "Pie and Mash" particularly since you were kind enough to personally inscribe it to me!! Incidentally you wouldn't happen to know who the tallest rider in the Provincial League was would you??

Gotta say Rayleigh (1960) with what Dave Lanning once called a matt-finish combo(whatever that means) with Reg Reeves , Eric Hockaday,, Alan Smith, Pete Lansdale et al. Also Poole (1960)-Gilbertson, Middleditch, Mudge, also Newcastle (1964) with Mauger, Bill Andrew, Sharples , Watkin and Kelly. Tough call -only one I ever saw was Newcastle (64) what a powerhouse they were. Any thoughts from pother Prov. league aficianados(not sure I spelt that right) .Have to exclude the venerable Norbold from this as he was an NL fan (boo)!!! I still remember the PL as a wonderful harum-scarum league that provided the best entertainment. Miss it much.

Best : #1 Being at L.A. World Final in 1981 #2 Newport winning KO Cup Final of Prov. League against CH in October 1964 (eat your heart out BL65). #3 Seeing Knutsson winning 1965 World Final at Wembley. Worst: None -I loved it all

Who was Frank Drake- he reported about Exeter and someone said it might be a pee-take (thanx for introducing me to that term Gustix) and was based on Sir francis Drake.

OK OK I know this is supposed to be about the UK-but I would like to see tracks reopen in Welland, Paris and Dundas -all in Ontario.

Was Barry Lee the rider involved in the Dave Wills accident or was it the Teo accident??

I also posted this in the "Names from the Sixties thread'-however thought it fit here as well as Ronnie may indeed fit the category of unsung heroes.

Here are Ronnie Rolfe's averages 1960-63. Courtesy of Matt Jackson.. 1960 he rode for CH, 61 for CH and Sheffield, 1962 CH and 1963 for Hackney. For each year listed are the # of meetings and CMA. Here goes 1960; 19-6.32; 1961; 24 -6.60: 1962 ; 24-5.87; 1963 10-3.76 .So for example in 1960 he rode in 19 meetings with a CMA of 6.32. Looks like Ronnie's best year was 1961. One comment -I think these are not just Prov. league matches but also other official meeting like e.g. the KO Cup-they may also include the regional leagues for PL teams e.g. Northern league, these were usually run at the start of the season before the regular PL season got underway. Hope this helps.

Re previous notes and for Norbold-before we finally finish with this you wouldn't happen to know how tall Errol Brook was would you??

More re Ronnie Rolfe. Courtesy of Matt Jackson-here are the Prov. League averages for Ronnie: 1960 (CH) meetings 19:CMA 6.32 . 1961(CH/Sheff) meetings 24: CMA 6.60. 1962 (Sheffield) meetings 20 : CMA 5.87.1963 (Hackney) meetings 10: CMA 3.75. Think these are not just PL League Meetings but include e.g. KO Cup and perhaps the regional leagues which were usually held at the start of the season e.g. Northern League. These comprised the PL teams from that region and occurred before the regular PL season got underway. Hope this helps.

Sorry gustix my mention of Errol Brook in the post about the Speedway X1 was indeed a pee-take. As you may know I have a bizarre sense of humour (among my many other bizarre traits)- no offence meant. Shout out to Norbold though-who evidently saw the funny side of my comment. I promise to be more serious in the future (well-maybe!!!)

Great post -wot a laff-don't suppose Errol Brook played -or did he??

Hope Ronnie is still with us (maybe not though)-here is what I have found out so far from the great Peter Morrish book "British Speedway Leagues 1949-1964.. Its a great book but only shows number of points scored , not number of meetings or number of rides. So here goes : 1956 for Rye House - 3 pts.; 1957 for Rye House- 18 pts.; 1959 for Rye House- 47 pts... All these are SAL scores. Looks like there may have been no SAL in 1958.. However in 1959 Ronnie also scored 16 pts. for Wimbledon in NL. I have lots of PL stats from 1960 onwards from Matt Jackson who does a wonderful stats job( we all owe him a great deal) -will check this out and provide Ronnie's CMA's for following years. never got to see Ronnie-but he is obviously a part of the history of our great sport!! Wonderful that his name got mentioned as my "research" in Peter's book has also brought back memories!! Thanx forumlanders!!

You got me on this one BL55