BOBBATH

Good as he was did Clive ever get to a PLRC Final? I know Jack Kitchen did and wasn't Jack part of a four man run off ( a Grand Final) for the 63 Championship- I am trying to remember the four riders in that race- I think they were Mauger (who won in a re-run), Kitchen, George Hunter and Wayne Briggs. Any forumlander at that meeting at Belle Vue?? Wish I could have gone.

Thanx gustix-knew you couldn't be all that bad-clearly you are an officer and a gentleman. Cheers

Firstly thanks to Dave Allan, BL65 , Norbold and other historians (sorry gustix!) for all their research. Reg Fearman ( a great speedway historian and a stickler for accuracy in his own right) recently sent me a copy of a poster advertising a WCQR meeting at West Ham from years ago and listing the riders-the date was August 30th. It was either 1949 or 1950-Reg is pretty sure it was 1949-he's probably right but I don't know. Can somebody post the riders scores and heat details for whichever year it was . Again many thanks to all forumlanders for keeping the history of our wonderful sport alive and accurate. Does anyone know the details of this meeting and which year it took place, it was obviously a tremendous field of riders-if only those days could come back!!!

Me too I've often wondered, didn't they leave a lot of debts behind them though

Just thought of a 4th-how could I have forgotten Gooch, Great riders all....

Oxford 1964 what a team-they had a number of guys whose name started with G-trying to remember there was Geran , Genz, Goody the others (if any) I can't recall . Certainly there was Ron How, Pander, Reeves and Bishop-,maybe there were only 3 G-Men

Sorry to hear that Les died so young Steve.

Rayleigh Pirates?? Were they called that when Poole dropped out of the league-thought they were always the Rockets..

I am on a roll here -thinking of Les made me think of Hackney 1964-what is forumlanders consensus of whose career was best-Roy Trigg or Colin Pratt(I know this is off topic and will wait for all the brickbats)- I vote for Triggy although Reg F. would vote for Colin!!!

Anybody know when Les passed and how old he was, also how old is Sandy? I can see Les in my mind now, with his leg stuck out- another nice guy who should never be forgotten. I know he rode at numerous tracks-where did he have his best performances-at Leicester Hunters maybe??

Been thinking about posting to this thread for a while-saw the comment re Clive being a middle order rider and with respect I think this applies post 1965. In the Prov. League Clive was a consistent heat leader and a crowd puller- he was either top or second in the Sheffield averages from 61 thru 64. I don't think (request input from historians here) that he had an average below 9 points his entire time with Sheffield!!!. He was second in their averages in 1961 behind Guy Allott and then was either first or second in their averages(changing back and forth with Jack Kitchen) for the rest of the League's existence. Even in the first BL year he was their second heat leader to Jack, ahead of Billy Bales. I checked thru' my programs and discovered that I saw Clive ride in 6 meetings in 65-66. The first time was most memorable-9 July 1965. Clive knocked off Dick Bradley in Heat 6 of a BL clash at Somerton Park. That was Dick's last race-he was 40+ and decided to pack it in. No criticism of Clive meant he was just a tough rider. As an aside - Dick was the Wasps second highest average heat leader at that time and Newport were unable to get a replacement. Newport finished as the highest of the old PL tracks (OK OK I know that Halifax was composed of a large part of the Middlesbro' Bears old team) that year and I wonder if Dick had not been injured we could have ended on top even. We would have had a solid team with 4 heat leaders -Biggs, Bradley, Vandenberg, Golden!! Don't forget we lost only by 40-38 at Wimbledon Second time I saw Clive was at Poole July 28th for a British Semi-Final(that meeting is a story in itself-were any forumlanders there?). Very tough field , Clive got only 2 points , but did finish ahead of Colin Pratt when they met!! Saw him another three times in 1966 riding for CH but to me will always be a Sheffield Tiger(a team that always offered good entertainment). Don't want to downplay the importance of the PL here -in the combined year of 1965 a number of PL riders more than held their own- e.g. Dave Younghusband, Eric Boocock, Colin Pratt, Charlie Monk, Bill Andrew, Pete Kelly , Tommy Sweetman , Roy Trigg etc.etc. So , a tip of the hat to you Clive for providing so much enjoyment to myself and many others. R.I.P. indeed!!!!

I recall Les very well, he was the third heat leader (Colin Pratt and Roy Trigg the other two) in a very strong Hackney Prov. League track in the PL 1964.In fact it looked for a while that they might finish champions, but in the end finished behind the Mauger led Diamonds. I recall that in the first BL season of 1965 Les was still a valued team member, but then was the top second string as Gerry Jackson had joined from NL Wimbledon (I think) and topped the Hawks averages along with Colin and Roy. BTW am glad to hear that Sandy is still going strong-think his career was cut short by some bad injuries.

Agreed Britmet and I meant no disrespect to Ivor who I always enjoyed seeing riding-he was unpopular with away fans only because he was so good and would beat the favourite riders of their tracks on their home territory

I was thinking of mentioning Ivor Brown myself-the man all non Cradley Heath fans loved to hate. Always good box office, always called upon for Open meetings. On a side note loved the old Harum-Scarum Provincial League-great racing and great personalities.

Jack is the 10th oldest surviving World Finalist-he will turn 90 on 10th December, if any forumlander gets to visit him please tell him he is fondly remembered by the Speedway fraternity. Good on you Jack.

Have to part ways with you on this one gustix. I think its absolutely great of Dave, Norbold, BL65 et al to do this-to me historical accuracy is very important, so why not try and get it right . Just to let these folks know I really appreciate their efforts and to keep up the good work. Cheers Bob

Bit off topic maybe but went to Maurice Jones excellent book "World Speedway Finals A History from 1929" which finishes with the 1978 WF to see the earliest final which still has survivors-no surprise that all of the 1949 Finalist have passed, however there are two survivors of the 1950 Final -Split Waterman and Arthur Payne, two survivors of 1951 Final-Split of course and Dick Bradley latter had one ride as reserve. Amazing to think that these guys are still with almost 70 years after their first World Finals.

Just heard from Reg Fearman- you will be glad to know that Ray Cresp is indeed still with us (thanks for mentioning him Steve)-he's 91 but has been ill recently with heart problems-hope he is around for many years to come. A real battler on the track- I recall him for Long Eaton in1965. I think before that he was in the NL with West Ham

Hi Steve-great list, had forgotten about Cap'n Jim-also thanks for reminder re Stefan Kwoczala. To be honest am not sure about Ray Cresp- my good friend Reg Fearman was certainly in touch with him in recent years and have asked Reg -who has a compendious knowledge of this era and knows probably everybody on this list -to let me know. Thanks for the work you did Steve. P.S. Looks like you've moved from Illinois to Ohio

Here goes; 1. Split Waterman 27/7/23; 2 Arthur Payne 30/8/24;(not sure if still alive) ;3 Dick Bradley 28/11/24; 4. Eric Boothroyd 26/4/27; 5.Derek Close 13/5/27; 6 .Billy Bales 6/6/29; 7. Olle Nygren 11/11/29; 8 Rune Sormander 29/11/29; 9.Jack Geran 10/12/29; 10. Ian Williams 4/8/31; 11.Per Tage Svensson 16/1031 12. Peo Soderman 29/10/32 13. Ove Fundin 23/5/33; 14. Dan Forsberg 25/3/34; 15 Josef Hofmeister 26/7/34 (Thanx Norbold);16 Mike Broadbank 25/9/34; First Reserve : Barry Briggs 30/12/34. This is my best shot-anyone know if Arthur Payne is still alive??-may have missed a couple as there are quite a few folks who were born around the 1933-34 period e.g. maybe Crutcher/ Knutsson/ Nordin / should be there or thereabouts. Any additions or deletions very welcome!!

Thanks Tigerowl

Another famous part of speedway history has just passed. Polish Champ in 1959 and World Finalist in 1960. I am sure that old -(should say mature!!) Leicester Hunter fans will remember him.

Very sorry to hear that-92 is a good age though. Have lost track of the oldest World Finalists though-so many have passed. Clearly Split is #1 and I reckon Dick Bradley is #2

Thanks Steve, I looked up previous threads, in fact I contributed to one-I'd forgotten that(-must be age)- I noticed that Mark had requested info on his dad's career and that one poster to the thread mentioned that Gil had died of blood poisoning, however was sad to have it confirmed that he'd taken his own life back in 1963.

Does anyone recall the circumstances of Gil's death-a Newcastle star in the PL on loan from the Dons-heard he committed suicide-does anyone know the background????