guitar_art

Whoops I said I wasn't going to participate further in this debate. Just wanted to make a further point. Football and its play offs have been held up as an argument for play offs in speedway. I would just like to state the obvious. They do not settle the league champs in that way and they use a neutral venue, something that happens in most sports that use a play off system. I have given an answer to your question at least as far as the NL is concerned. You have suggested it is for monetary reasons but have not provided any real evidence to support this other than your interpretation of a meeting that you did not attend. I respectfully suggest that this is not evidence but merely an opinion. I have given at least one alternative to your suggestion (This again is merely opinion) and pointed out that the vote was not unanimous so even within the NL there is a difference of opinion on this matter. Damn I said I was not going to rejoin the debate. The problem is I am enjoying it to much. Sigh!! I really must get myself a life. Please tell me how this adds to the debate?

Ok I am now going to attempt to answer some of the points below to the best of my ability. I hope that I can do so without resorting to bad manners, that will certainly be my aim. When I have finished I don't imagine that I will be making another post on the subject (though you never know) as I don't see the point. I would like to make it clear that this is not because I in anyway concede any of the points in the posts I am quoting or any other. This means that I will of course be leaving others to have the last word but I don't have a problem with that. Unlike others I am not stating that I am right. As I have previously said I believe its not as black and white as that. However my views are my views and I have not (so far) heard any argument that has made me change my mind. My view is simple. Play offs in a speedway context are unfair for reasons I have already stated and will probably restate below. We have been compared in this debate to other sports which is why I have said in a speedway context. This sport is unique in so many ways and one of those ways is the home track advantage argument. No other team sport that I can think of carries so big an advantage to the home team. One of the reasons that I have suggested that any T/S rule should only be available to the away team. I am not holding myself up as the be all and know all on speedway matters and I am happy to be criticised and corrected if this is done with good manners. Anyway for what it's worth here is my attempt at answering the points made. In finishing I will say. It is a shame that some have not been able to conduct a debate without bad manners. I hope that this accusation cannot be made against me and if I have upset anyone, it was not intended and I apologise. I have enjoyed the debate such as it is. I do not and never have expected to change the opinion of those I have debated with. Those opinions are honestly held and I respect and understand that. For me the debate is for those that are wavering or have no firm opinion. I will now leave the debate for others. Not because I have nothing more to say (those that know me know that will never be true ) not because others posts or opinions are so strong that I am not able to repudiate. No the real reason is that I have a life. Anyway members of this site have now heard my voice for long enough on this subject and its time for others to have their say. I would just ask that everyone, from both sides, treat each other with respect. Don't forget that the only reason that any of this is important to us is the love and passion we have for this sport. That is something we all have in common, and there is not enough of us to fall out over such things. I have to finish with. Brummies are Best. lol

If last years gold cup had been a play off final Birmingham would not have been crowned champions even though we were the best team over the season. This would have been for two reason. a) late and astute signing by Eastbourne i.e Money. and home track advantage. All of that is fact. Want to answer this and an earlier post in full as I am aware there are gaps in my argument. But the shops and late night Christmas shopping is unfortunately calling. Wish me luck.

I am currently at work so cannot reply in full. But I will later. I will say this for now. I find it sad you cannot make your point such as it is without resorting to name calling. When I reply I will do so without resorting to such tactics please try to calm down and do so yourself bewitcher.

The only people who can do that are the club owners themselves. So although I don't agree with Orion on this matter I think its unhelpful to use this as an argument. I feel the same when Orion says that those who do not want play offs need to show proof. Sorry Orion but as far as I am concerned the burden of proof lies on the other side of the argument. Orion (as far as I can gather and I apologise if I have this wrong) seems to believe that more supporters want play offs than don't. I have a feeling that it is the other way round. May I suggest that we run a pole on that very question? I won't have time to set it up until tommorow so if anyone else wants to start one please feel free. I would be very interested in the result. Of course whatever happens in such a pole does not mean one side is right and one side is wrong it just shows the strength of feeling on either side. I have seen video of the early days of the EL and there certainly seemed to be many more fans there than now. Those fans have been lost while play offs were functioning. Please understand that I am not holding this up as proof one way of the other. Just making the case that this is far less black and white than either side is saying. However my premise is simply that the play offs are an unfair way to decide a league competition. It gives unfair advantage to clubs with deep pockets and those with greater home track advantage. Eastbourne fans can come on here and fairly say things such as 'its a track with four corners' and 'the league(s) are stronger for having variety' and so on. All of these are valid and fair statements. However it cannot be denied (really it can't) that some tracks hold a greater advantage than others. Less so as you move up through the leagues I will grant you. If such tracks win a league title over the course of a season then good luck to them and no moaning from me. But it will always leave a sour taste in the mouth if my club finishes top over a season (and I am not saying they will, although so far so good in the team building stakes.) and then loses in a final because a) the team that wins brought in a ringer at the last moment or we cant compete on their track while they can on our track. I understand what you have stated about systems being tried and rejected. I grasp that fully. It does not mean that it is a fair way of deciding a league. It isn't for the reasons that I have stated. It is my opinion that eventually unfairness (even perceived unfairness and more about that in a moment.) will eventually wear down the goodwill of supporters. And just because play offs work financially in the now (and I don't concede that point) does not mean they will continue to work. Even it that is not true that play offs are unfair (and again I do not concede that point) the very perception that this could be true is enough to hack people off. And that, if I may suggest, is the biggest problem that our sport has. A problem of perception. Because of the way it is run we can and have had doubts about decisions that do and don't go our way. We have all had doubt at some time or other along those lines. Not because things are necessarily so but because the way the sport is run means they are open to allegations such as these and the perception grows bigger that things are not how they should be. And lets be honest here. These decision are not and never have been taken for the good of the sport. They are taken because of individual clubs own needs. That is the way our sport is run and why we have ALL everyone of us had problems with perception over the years. Think I'll shut up now lol.

I understand what you mean BS and I know that I have opined similarly. However now, I think, is the time to say "stuff it" lets go out and win this thing anyway. Since 2007 Birmingham have been in several finals and I think I am right in saying we have won not one of them. Well lets change that. Lets win the thing and then still turn round and say. It's not right and its unfair but we won it anyway.

I fail to see what point you are making here. The conversation I reported happened and if it happened once it could and probably has more than once. I was not holding this conversation as proof of anything other than countering arguments that this issue is in some way an age related one with oldies like myself on one side of the argument and young people on the other side. Whichever side of the argument you come down on it is not as simple as that there are people of all age groups sharing differing opinions. My suspicion (and I have only a suspicion) is that the majority are of the view that play offs are Unfair. It is my personal view that over time unfairness can cause fans to drift away. I am not saying (because that would be stupid) that it is the only reason fans drift away. In fact I think there are other issues far more important in that regard. I will finish with this observation. In all of my posts on this subject I have tried, I think successfully, not to resort to name calling, finger pointing, ridiculing, bad temper and so on. Others, from both sides of the debate, have failed to do so. If you don't treat your fellow posters with respect, even in the face of provocation, then as far as I am concerned you have nothing of any consequence to say. (Please understand I use the word 'you' in its plural definition and I am not making a direct reference to the poster I have quoted above.)

I can promise you that the conversation was real. (To be fair it was a much longer conversation but you got the gist.) The fact that you have to try to ridicule it says more about you than I ever could.

I did. Didn't like it. Probably wont go again. (To be fair its a long way for me to go.) That ok as far as it goes and is not the problem. The problem is making a league title into a cup competition that immediately makes home advantage a big factor.

Not going to join the debate I see raging here as neither side is listening to the other. I will simply say this. I don't like play offs. I find them unfair and boring. This of course is coming from what many on here would consider an old man and therefore (apparently) not worthy of an opinion. So I will leave you with the words my 15 year old son (Happy Birthday son) has just uttered to me. Dad I don't think I will go to speedway next year. Why son. I think play offs are stupid and I don't think it will be fun.

Different standard of rider is the simple answer to that. And Eastie's inability to compete with the moneybags teams.

Any way of increasing the tactical element of speedway is good in my book. This helps to create points of discussion on the terraces and to alleviate the wait between races. One of the reasons that the old T/S rule was so good, although I now think that would not be good at NL level. I also think that saying the highest averaged rider has to ride at number 1 is wrong as well. There should be more leeway for the team manager to move his forces around, make him/her work for his/her living. (This might have the added benefit, for the clubs if not for us fans, of selling more programs if you don't know the line up beforehand.)

Sorry but I respectfully don't see your logic. You appear to be connecting riders riding for peanuts to the crowds staying at the same level. If you are just saying that the crowds stay at the same level for each match is not connected to riders wage levels then you have not given an explanation for why this might be so. I would have to conclude that it is because the NL are doing something right. In any case two teams in this years NL have moved from the EL and have reported better crowd levels. Birmingham even having at least one crowd bigger than the number watching the EL play off final! Of course you could fairly point out that Birmingham closed down and that therefore the crowd levels were due to them getting their club back. I would have to say there could be more than a little truth in that. However the same cannot be said for Eastbourne. It is a personal opinion of mine but I dislike play offs. If you want a cup competition then have a cup competition. But a league competition should be a league competition. If this years national league had been decided by play offs then Easty would have won the lot because by the end of the year they were without doubt the best team in the league. But over the course of the season Birmingham were the better team. That is why a league is a league and a cup is a cup. For those that like the play offs I say, Fine,fair enough have your play offs but for a different trophy as is done in Rugby and as the NL did this year. It is my opinion that crowds would still turn out for the play offs. And for those that say no they would not I have to ask where is your proof? I can turn to the NL this season and show that it did not adversely affect the crowds. Can you do the same? And wouldn't it be worth finding out even if only for one season?

My guess is that more than a few don't like play offs. (Me included!) I have to say that IMO resurrecting the KOC for the play offs would be a good way to go. Sky could have two trophies for the price of one. As for those that believe that the fans would not turn out for the playoffs if they were not connected to the league. I saw no evidence of that during the NL campaign this year. I am sure that if you ask any Eastie fan they didn't see the gold cup as a devalued trophy. In fact Eastbourne management used the cup to try to say that they were the better team over the year. (They weren't they were the best cup team) This is of course all opinion on my part. However I do say this. There is a well known saying: - "If it ain't broke don't fix it." Well it is broke so maybe its worth finding out.

For me something does need to be done about the tactical rule. (whether or not it be the black and white or the old t/s). Time and again I hear that the purpose of the tactical is to make matches closer. (You can just hear everyone inserting the word 'artificially' between the words matches and closer.) This is plainly ridiculous and makes a mockery of all the other rules we have in place such as averages. But I do believe speedway needs a tactical element. After all most other sports do so. It provides talking points on the terraces. Incidentally the old T/S rule provides more opportunity for terrace managers than the double points although I take the point of those that say it would not help with rider development. I have said it before and I will keep on saying it. The tactical rule (whichever rule you use) should have as its aim a very simple very reasonable target. Its stated aim should be NOT to make matches closer. Its stated aim should be to combat home track advantage.(Sorry Eastbourne lol.) As such the facility should only be available to the away side. This is entirely reasonable in my book. For what it is worth. I think the national league got it right this year. The winner of the league is the winner of the league. As for the gold cup. Some have said that such a competition would not be supported. I did not see that. It seemed to be very well supported from where I was standing. First Cradley (unsuccessfully) and the Eastie (successfully) wanted to topple the league leaders and all of the matches I saw were well supported. My guess is that at the AGM (On my sons Birthday.) Eastbourne will arrive with the proposal to re-instate the play offs. The others, if they have any sense, will say 'on yer bike. I do wonder, with BT entering the speedway fray if we may see a change in things come the next time the sky contract is due. If we have two providers courting us then speedway would be in a better position to dictate how things happen. I live in hope.

But easty play the joker every time they go on track at home. It's called Arlington

Glad to see Cradley live on. Interesting who they decided to thank and who they decided not to. Looking forward to beating you all again.

I for one would miss them. I love beating them.

Well out of order. I hope it doesn't happen to you but if it did you might engage your brain before your mouth. Incidentally Tony Mole said last night (at the end of season bash) that Cradley were keeping him fully informed and that he was confident things would be sorted.

It was Cradley's decision to run on a track that probably wasn't up to it after torrential overnight rain. Nothing to do with Birmingham. Birmingham made an early decision not to run the first leg of the gold cup semi against Cradley after similar weather. We were castigated for it at the time. Looks like a very wise decision now.

A few weeks ago Birmingham cancelled the first leg of the gold cup semi V Cradley after a night of rain similar to the flood dumped on Perry Barry Tuesday night this week. The Brummies management took an early decision to postpone and were roundly criticised for this. I would suggest that the Birmingham management got it right.

What a bitter thing to say from a bitter man. Well we will continue being noisy I can assure you. Congrats on winning the consolation cup Eastbourne Defo the best team over two legs and four matches. Noisy Birmingham are happy being the best team over 18 matches. Its now going to be an interesting team building close season. I predict that the same three teams will be slugging it out next year for the top spot. Heres fingers crossed for a Cradley return so we can be noisy neighbours once again. I wish I could be a fly on the wall at the NL AGM. I predict Eastbourne turning up at the AGM asking for the play off system to return and all the other clubs (If they have any sense) saying not on your nelly.

I feel for the Cradley fans at this point. Looks like a winter of uncertainty something that us Brummie fans experienced last year. Keep the faith guys.

http://www.birminghambrummies.co/news.php?extend.2199 Interestingly from that press release are Birmingham now considering moving into the PL?

I take it from your snidiness that you are sugesting some sort of fowl play here. I wonder if you would say to Sam Chapmans face that it has worked out well, particularly when he needs an operation on his shoulder.