fatface

Interesting formula. One that I suspect weighs heavily in favour of your own opinions, but interesting nonetheless. In particular, I have a bit of an objection to the WLT being held in such high regard. It is a similar, but ultimately different sport with different skills required. It's also an event that really ebbed away in its importance. For someone like Simon Wigg and the top Germans, it was a huge priority event. But for pretty much every other top speedway rider of the 1980s and beyond, it was at best a bonus and at worst an irrelevance. In my book it should play no role in determining the standing of speedway riders. Guys like Trevor Banks and Steve Schofield were top long-trackers/grass-trackers, probably better than say Hans Nielsen and Sam Ermolenko. As speedway riders? Not even in the same league. I wouldn't even attempt to produce an exact formula, it simply comes down to an opinion that you can back with a valid argument. I have no great quarrel with anyone who would say that at their best Mike Lee and Kenny Carter (in the 80s) were better speedway riders than Chris Morton at his best. I think that can probably be justified. But for an overall contribution across the decade, I'd have to stick with Mort. Put yourself in the position of a team manager or promoter at the start of the 1980s, you can pick any British rider to represent your club for the whole of the decade. If you chose Mort, then you'd have to say, you made the right choice.

Thanks Kresno..that clarifies it. But I still would not be too surprised to see him getting a few wild cards other than Danish GPs. Particularly in Sweden and Poland where there will already be a healthy number of home riders in the line-up. I believe there is a history of this with both Mark Loram and Tomasz Gollob getting multiple wild cards in years when they hadn't qualified by rights?

Best GP line-up yet? If Hans gets a few wild-cards - like he did the last time he missed out - then I expect him to be a fiery presence on the scene next year too.

1 Chris Morton 2 Kenny Carter 3 Mike Lee 4 Simon Wigg 5 Kelvin Tatum 6 Peter Collins 7 Jem Doncaster 8 Les Collins 9 Phil Collins 10 Alan Grahame 11 Andy Grahame 12 Dave Jessup 13 Neil Evitts 14 John Davis 15 Andy Smith 16 Simon Cross 17 Marvyn Cox 18 Neil Collins 19 John Louis 20 Paul Thorp Others..Richard Knight, Steve Schofield To declare my interests, Chris Morton is my all-time favourite, but I still reckon I can back it up. He was capable of beating the very best in the world from 1980 right through to 1988. At their very best, Carter and Lee were probably better riders. But for an overall contribution over the decade, Mort has to come out top. He led Belle Vue throughout the decade, averaging above 9pts for nine seasons (above 10 for four of those). For England, he got the vast bulk of his 100 caps, twice top scored in WTC finals and actually scored his first England maximum (vs USA) as late as 1988. Also top-scored when he and PC won the World Pairs. Individually, he won British Final, BLRC (when it really meant something), Inter-Continental and was third in the World Long-Track. His World Final record makes painful reading and doesn't fairly reflect his talent at all. But as a club rider, you'd be hard pressed to find a more reliable and entertaining no1 throughout the 80s. As for others, I haven't rated Jessup too highly because after 1980, he was on the slide, by 1984 he was second-string level. John Louis sneaks in because although past his best, he was still a capable of giving most no1s a decent race right through to 1985. Also liked that he didn't take the easy pickings at NL level, when he could've had some easy pickings there for a few years. Tatum gets a hard ride from some and like many, he wasn't my cup of tea (more gater than racer). But he was still a top line rider for the latter half of the 80s.

...and...relax.. If Bruce had a keen enthusiast from another country approach him to write a book about him, then like most decent people he would say yes. Let's be honest the re-emergence of the speedway book market had only just started when that book came out. It's not as if Tempus, Retro Speedway and the rest were in a bidding war. I agree, a much better job would have been done by Tony Mac now..and given the full Cardiff launch. But so be it.. As for other points in this thread. I don't think he would ever admit it, but surely Bruce must've had some pangs of regret over his retirement. I completely understand why a 25 year old Californian man would be easily tempted by the offer of Hollywood fame and fortune over more years of endless travelling around Europe pursuing a life-threatening job whilst based in the Black Country. But it's a rare thing to the best the in the world at something...and Bruce was the best. To believe he could jump over to a completely unrelated vocation like acting and be among the best at that...well, it showed more than a smidge of ego.

Which clubs tried to entice him into a comeback? When?

Yes I do dismiss the prospect of a World Final being at the Olympic Stadium as you suggested above (re-read if you must) as it was only good enough for the Nordens, Pockings, Bradfords and Vojens of this world until it's inevitable demise. And you dismiss the prospect of a British GP being there (re-read if you must). Which I actually don't think is impossible. So, if not a GP, what is this great big speedway meeting at the Olympic Park that you have in mind then? Golden Greats by chance? It's digressing (as you seem to be increasingly relying upon), but I also work for an organisation with close links to the sporting legacy of the Olympic Park and previously worked as spokesman for a National Governing Body who has a large interest in the stadium legacy. So, yep, I do know a little about that too. Now come on Parsoles...one last chance...tell us how going back to the old World Finals will bring in massive TV audiences and massive crowds. Convince me...please

Now you're changing tack to avoid the issues you raised. If you can convince us with any evidence that bringing back the old World Finals will increase crowds and attract bigger television audiences in the modern world, then please do it. Saying you 100% believe the Olympic Stadium could hold the World Final is frankly a lame, baseless thought with no grounding in reality. I once 100% believed in Santa Claus.

Indeed. Who will ever forget the grown men crying on the streets after Vojens 94? Some people need a serious reality check. It's all well and good reminiscing about Wembley 72 and the like. The world was a hugely different place. There were only three TV channels, not everyone in the country even had a TV and of those that did, a fair amount were watching black and white. TV finished at around 11pm when we were played "God save the Queen" and then told to get to bed. There were no cinema multi-plexes, no DVDs, not even videos, never mind iPods and iPhones. No internet. There was very little live sport on TV. Indeed, the only live football match to be shown on TV every year would be the FA Cup Final. Hence, there was much greater thirst for live sport...even greyhound racing and county cricket attracted big crowds. The entertainment options in the early 1970s were simply light years behind what we have now. As time passed, the Speedway World Championship as it was had simply not moved with the times and slipped into irrelevance. From 85 onwards, I think only Vojens 88 and 94 actually got any terrestrial coverage and they were one week late in 30 minute BBC Sunday Grandstand highlights packages. The others were hidden away on Eurosport or Screensport, if indeed they were anywhere. I think most people would agree that speedway as a whole has declined in popularity since the 1960s and 1970s - that's a fair point. Some of this is down to the way society has changed, plenty of it is also to do with the way the sport - and in Britain in particular - has managed itself. But I simply cannot accept the decline is down to the loss of "the old World Finals" (and I enjoyed most of five I attended from 83-92). The sport was the lowest ebb it has ever been in the early 1990s. The move to the GP format has given the sport regular presence again in the public eye. Had we not made this move, I simply dread to think where we would be now. My guess would be that Poole and Coventry would have been World Final venues and it would covered exclusively by Re-Run videos. If you really want to convince people then present us with some facts that demonstrate how our World Championship was booming in TV audiences and crowd numbers for those 10-15 years before the GP. Otherwise, all you are doing is rambling on down Memory Lane.

Hope this happens. It's vital for the growth of the sport and bring extra credibility to the championship. None of us know how the numbers stack up, but clearly the stand-alone Aussie GP just didn't add up. Clearly there has to be a coming together between promoters to make it pay for riders and promoters alike. As well as a NZ and Aussie GP, whose to say Ivan Mauger couldn't cash in with a couple of big long track meetings and perhaps some of the Aussie promoters could hold an Australia v Rest of the World Test Series too?

Deluded. Yes, roll on Pocking 2015, where it is compulsory for all riders to wear monkey masks and ride Japs.

Rather a cobbled together argument. PC wasn't the greatest from the tapes, but let's not re-write history..he could certainly hop out at times. Muller's victory was down to a German stitch up. Who told Mike Lee that? When? Where? The Peter Craven stuff is fascinating and probably holds an element of truth. Is this a conversation you actually heard though? As for Gollob..at one time I would have loved him to win it, now I'm not too sure. Yes, I agree he is the most talented rider not to have won it. But the fact that there are three GPs in Poland this year and his rather dubious tactics on at least three occasions have left me feeling a little hollow over the prospect of a Gollob title. I never thought I'd be rooting for Crump, but there's something about his battling approach against the odds this year that has me really warming to his challenge.

tricky one this Tony...but I reckon most 30+ fans would find humour in a t-shirt that simply said: "He had nooooooooo chance!"

Good knowledge! I was there too. Arena were head and shoulders above everyone that year...think they had Bo Petersen and Brian Karger as their spearhead, both were essentially top league riders. So it was surprising that the Falcons stormed into such a big lead. But the turnaround was still shocking. They just suddenly turned it on.

Yes, the exact Speedway's Classic Meetings I was talking about. That's Speedway's Classic Meetings, for anyone who missed it the first time.

You never miss the opportunity of a free plug do you? Next you'll be telling us all that the timeless "Speedway's Classic Meetings" is still available and would make an ideal christmas present. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Speedways-Classic-...s/dp/075243554X You're shameless Norman. Utterly shameless.

Give me a shout if you do organise something. I live very locally. As you know, I'm too young to have any recollections of speedway in the area, but would be delighted to join you boys for a pint or two and listen to some shale tales of yore :-)

Here's a little reminder of why I am a little reluctant to rely upon your recollections. This was an absolute gem!

Lee had at least eight years at the top level, no major injuries and well, he lived. But, pleased to see that we're now measuring Carter alongside the type of riders he should be compared to. Not sure how many would rank the Longtrack, Inter-continental and Commonwealth titles above the BLRC and British Final. Very few riders or fans from that era I suspect. As for the WTC, it'd be harsh to measure a rider's individual prowess when he is largely reliant on his team-mates. God knows, Carter tried his best. Even his maximum in the Danes' backyard of Vojens against the likes of Penhall, Olsen, Gundersen, Nielsen, Sigalos wasn't enough to get England through to the final in 82.

I was decent enough to admit I was nitpicking there in terms of 1983. I just didn't want it cast aside that he won nothing individually that year..as you had suggested. Look, I'm no big Carter fan. I just want fair recognition for the rider he was, despite his undoubted flaws as a human being. People can argue that he would never have won the World Title anyway, even if that tragic night in 86 never occurred and they have a solid case. But when I hear terms like "second rate" and "defeatist" used alongside his name, I simply cannot let that pass. Whenever there are discussions amongst speedway fans of the best riders never to have won the World Final, his name is invariably one of the first to be mentioned. ps. Golden Gauntlets - Leicester; Blue Riband - Poole; Golden Hammer - Cradley; 16 lapper - Ipswich; Brandonapolis - Coventry (doubled as Olsen's farewell in 83). I thought most people knew these..maybe I'm more of a nerd than I thought?!

In 79 and 80, Carter was 18/19 year old kid. But I'd be interested to hear the exact details of the matches in 82 and 83 which you recall. Particularly "running rings" round him in 82. So if you can dig those out, I'd be intuiged to hear of it. Ditto the multiple Grahame/Collins 5-1s.

It was his last ride, I think he only needed a third. So could happily to sit in second. Think PC 76, think Penhall 81. The way he was going, if he'd needed to win, he would have. You've abandoned the word defeatist then? Off the top of my head, Kenny won the big Olsen farewell, think he also won the World Final revenge at Vojens and Golden Gauntlets in 83 and top scored in winning the World Pairs with his good pal PC, but I'm nitpicking (and a little nerdish in my knowledge of that era!). Agreed that 83 wasn't his greatest year. Tony's book tells how business was a big distraction that year. You're probably right he could have won more in that particular year. But I can't be convinced the World Championship trophy itself was up for grabs. Gunther Sorber had that engraved in January

I've never mentioned the word illegal. Muller did nothing illegal that day. Can I be any clearer? If you are looking back at Kenny's quote, it was said with humour. I would compare Muller's mechanical advantage that day with say, what you sometimes get in Formula One. Jenson Button didn't do anything illegal this season, but would he have won the world championship if his Brawn car hadn't enjoyed such a strong advantage at the start of the season?

Impossible to say for sure. But I would certainly disagree. Muller was way, way faster than everyone that day. He absolutely pi$$ed past Ole Olsen (who was still a formidable competitor) on the first lap. Bruce nipped the same man by a tyre width the previous time they clashed in a World Final. We'll never know. But I went and really the meeting was all about Muller, minor places were only up fror grabs for the rest. I'm sure Tony Mac saw it the same way too. If my leg were broken. I'd be thinking the chips were down. He hopped on his 500cc bike and tried to do the impossible.

Muller took advantage of the odds that were stacked very heavily in his favour that day. I think we're actually in full agreement here! I was just making the point that it was hardly a chance missed for Carter. It was pretty much "noooo chance" for everyone..Carter, Olsen, Lee, Nielsen and the rest.. I think your grasping now Rob. To say Kenny was defeatist is stretching it a tad. Can't recall many other riders taking on four World Championship rounds despite a progressively worsening broken leg. Your odd selection of the somewhat uneven playing field of the 83 World Final and a single test match at Oxford in 85 as somehow being barometers to measure the rider Carter was are really pretty perplexing.