fatface

I'd agree with that. I'm sure you're the same as me though and wouldn't begrudge either Havelock or Loram their successes. They both took their one chance when it came. Eminem would've been impressed with that :-) Sport can be like that sometimes. I've had a fairly close involvement with athletics for many years and I think of Kelly Holmes' Double Olympic gold in 2004 in the same vein. She found her peak form and fitness at a time when some others were injured or down on fitness, some were past their peak and others were not quite at theirs. All the stars aligned for her for one short time and luckily enough it was during the Olympics. Fair play to her she took her chance with both hands, just like Havvy and Loramski did. :-)

I agree that it probably wasn't going to happen for him. But there's no doubt in my mind he was good enough to win it in the early 80s. Most reasoned observers would consider him very unlucky not get on the rostrum in 81 and very unlucky with injuries in 84 and 85 when most would consider him well capable of a serious title tilt. As for 82, well, some think he was ripped off, some say he deserved what he got. But there's little doubt who Bruce Penhall thought was his main opponent that year. Anyone else getting a feeling of deja vu in this thread?

As well as the re-writing of history above, this really can't be left unchallenged either. Out-trapping Penhall and then showing Kelly Moran no mercy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQu_QI745w0 Passing the Collins brothers with a broken leg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLjAbLt7u88 Cutting up Tiger Louis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1Wty8wUhkw More British Final overtaking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKCO49a1oNs overtaking again in a World Team Cup final: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdMcOAtGNmM passing Bobby Schwartz on his home track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7iUX2EPTKg third to first on England duty: I was a huge Belle Vue fan at the time and booed Kenny Carter as much as the next guy. What is undeniable though, is that he was a tremendous speedway rider. By all means have a negative opinion of the guy, but don't simply make things up.

I recall Richard Green having it for a short while in 1989. Very entertaining it was too. He won it from Berwick's Mark Courtney after a league match at Exeter. As I recall, the Berwich team management (poss Dick Barrie) even replaced Courtney with a reserve in his last programmed ride, so he could "psyche himself up" for the match race. Unfortunately, you can't out-psyche a psycho and Greeny romped it. He then went off to defend it at Hackney and after seeing the results appear on teletext that Exeter had been thrashed and Steve Schofield had scored a 15 point max, I assumed Greeny's reign was over. I assumed wrong as a few minutes later teletext gave me the great news: "Silver Helmet: R Green bt S Schofield". Ah, the simple joys of teletext sport, the fore-father of internet text commentary...

I live in London and personally would much rather the GP stays in Cardiff. I enjoy the annual pilgrimage to Wales and love the way the stadium is the focal point of the city and how the whole place becomes taken over by speedway fans. That wouldn't happen in London. The area of Wembley really is the ar*e-end of the city and not a place I would ever wish to go for a pre-event pint or three. It truly is grotty round there. As for the stadium, it's nice but a very sanitised experience too, with it's glass-frontage, sushi bars and escalators. It's all a bit soul-less. Parts of it are more like an airport than a sports stadium. Where I disagree with Philip is on media coverage. I can easily see speedway getting more media coverage where it to return to Wembley. Stories about "World Championship speedway returning to it's spiritual home" and "speedway returning to the capital for the first time in ???? years" is something that I think would have a very good chance of getting coverage from LBC, Evening Standard, Metro, TalkSport, London Tonight and BBC London. Which could even rouse those thousands of former speedway fans who live in London (there's none of those people in Cardiff) to pay a Wembley GP a visit. My position is that I'd much prefer the GP in Cardiff, but I wouldn't be shocked at all if Wembley took its place one day.

Agreed Jimmy Jimmy. I'll go to Cardiff every year no matter what. I also like to visit one Overseas GP a year. If there was a Manchester one, then I think I'd definitely go to the first Manchester GP. Thereafter, maybe every now and then. But I definitely reckon there's 17,000 European speedway fans who would fill Manchester annually.

I wonder if there is a "Pickles" out there who can help?

Funny, but I did have Shawn Moran's name in my head. Like I say, my memory is hazy. But I reckon his recollections could be even hazier

Didn't the actual Golden Helmet get lost? So, there actually wasn't one to win in the end? My memory is hazy on this one. But if so, who lost it? If not, where is it now?

It shouldn't come to that, but out of interest, I have and here's what comes up..minus my personal email, which I have deleted... State honorable, address of e-mail has been served at transaction performed in internet window credit card called unibax.kupbilety.pl. We ask click to following link, but confirmation of effecting of disbursement same and e-mail address in situation https://www.platnosci.pl:443/paygw/revr/MTQyMDczNTM5OjBhODEzZTgzZGFhNjU4ZDc5MjE3MTc3YTA0NjVlODBhOmVu.do, when it will not be confirmed transaction through click to above-mentioned link, it belongs to copy him (it), insert in address of browser and drive in ' ENTER '. E-mail in case of (accidentally of) lack of confirmation of address within next 24 hours, transaction can become (stay) rejected. If they did not perform state of transaction in served store credit card or service, by system serve Platnosci.pl, we ask urgent contact with our consultants phone 61 + 48 ( ) 630 60 05. E-mail it has been generated above-mentioned information automatically fraud@platnosci.pl. On her (it) ask not answer. Addresses, it can send interrogations (queries) on which (who) state pomoc@platnosci.pl, platnosci@platnosci.pl pay assistance - general tech@platnosci.pl - engineering problem. We salute, group tel Platnosci.pl 61 + 48 ( ) 630 60 05 fax 61 + 48 ( ) 860 27 22 Web s.a. http://www.platnosci.pl PayU, street 90 Marcelińska, 60-324 knowledge (poznan) 779-23-08-495 NIP, 300523444 REGON, court of (trial of) regional knowledge (poznan) - new city and in knowledge (poznan) Wilda, department VIII economic national (local) judicial register, 0000274399 KRS, stock of capital it pay in (to) integrity 4.000.000 zloty < golden > Clear as day eh? I recieved this email in Polish after commiting £300+ on-line. Since then, I have had only slightly-clearer ones which re-assures me a little (similar emails to Mateusz). I'm really looking forward to Torun and am sure me and my fellow fans will have a cracking time. But this really is no way to run a ticketing system for an international event. If speedway wants its major events to be taken seriously, it has to sort out its procedures. IMG need to take responsibility for this.

I preferred the monthly match race event as it felt more meaningful than the post-match format. Remember Kenny Carter holding it for a fair while in the early 80s, possibly even beating Bruce Penhall at Cradley? Although the latter format definitely had it moments with some surprising holders. I recall Carl Blackbird taking it off Hans Nielsen at Oxford.

I honestly don't know if the Cardiff confirmations go out in more than one language. What I do know is that my confirmation email regarding Torun doesn't have any indication it is for a speedway grand prix. There is no SGP logo, no Torun logo, no obvious reference number, not even the word "speedway" within it. All I know is that I visited the right site, tried to buy tickets and then a little while later received an email with "confirmation" in the title that was written in polish and not the language I elected to use on the system. So, I think I have tickets, but am still not 100% sure. What it needs is for IMG to have one ticket system across the whole series or if they can't do that, employ an agency that can.

I think I've got tickets?! Just got a confirmation email all in Polish that there has been a successful transaction. What a nonsense of a way to run the ticketing system though. Tickets are available, then they are not, then you don't get confirmation your payment has processed for a few hours. Then when that arrives, you can't make head nor tail of the email. Do IMG know how shoddy this is?

Another 10 years worth of royalties and I'll treat you to a Starbucks Norman

You and me both. I was a mature 9 year old at the time too..I remember them running out of programmes too. Also remember the riders on the pre-meeting parade throwing sweets out to all us kids

? I really don't think ITV showed this meeting at all. All I have ever seen is documentary style footage including off-track conversations and some action from the centre green. Nearly all of the old 70s/80s stuff can be found on YouTube and kindly shared by speedwayondisc, but I've never seen any World of Sport-style coverage of this match. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong though My personal favourite was the 1983 England v USA 5th match decider at Sheffield. Great racing on a great track and a brilliant climax. PC, Morton, Carter all brilliant.

He did didn't he? He did few weeks in Division 2 for them, before admitting he had lost his nerve and retiring. I've got loads! * Who came up with David East? * Did he have a bug eyed fish that he and Kelly named "Kelvin"? Think that's what I heard! * How did he cope with the broken leg when winning the World Long Track? * Why has he stayed away from the sport for so long? * Does he think he should have done better in World Finals? * How did the single "Motorbiking" come about? * Why on earth was he allowed to ride in the 1990 World Final after the FIM knew he had tested positive for a banned drug in a previous round? What does he think would have happened had he won that run off with Per Jonsson? * What was his favourite tracks? * Most feared opponents? * What are his memories of England v USA test matches?

Looks good Tony. I must say, I thought you'd be struggling for material by now. But I couldn't have been more wrong. The top 20s and other discussion pieces have really brought a fresh bit of life to it. I'll particularly look forward to the piece on Richard Green. As someone who grew up on Mort and PC at Hyde Road, I didn't think that my new "home" track of National League Exeter could ever come anywhere near in terms of excitement. But Greeny served up a treat virtually every week in the late 80s/early 90s.

Any inside info on when the tickets are available? I want to get a rolling start on this one.

...and you do so with your dignity very much in tact, despite some grossly unfair provocation. Writing a book - any book - takes a great deal of commitment and at the very least you deserve credit for the time and effort you have undoubtedly put in. Other people clearly have the time to rant on the internet endlessly, I'd suggest they use that energy more productively and perhaps write their own book that would - no doubt - spellbind all of us. Anyone doing down Penhall's ability on a speedway bike can only be based on prejudice and not his quite incredible talent. He won everything there was to win in a very short space of time. As well as winning two World Finals out of three finals, he also led the US to their first-ever World Pairs and World Team Cup victories. To suggest he is anything but an all-time great is utter nonsense. Had he chosen to prolong his career, I have no doubt he would have continued to win at the very highest level. Hans Nielsen managed the transition from 70s machinery through to late 90s supertuned motors, I fail to see why Penhall (arguably the greater talent) couldn't have managed it?

Ah well, I would've been (pleasantly) surprised had John Berry ventured North. Does Tony Davey still sneak into the top 20? I look forward to reading it.

He must need fresh directions Tony. He needs to head towards an Intercontinental Final win, past the BLRC and British Finals wins. Then hang a left at the World Team Cup win, a sharp right at the World Pairs win, past 100 England caps and six World Final appearances, then over nine seasons as one of the British League's top riders. When he gets there, there should be a picture of the only Englishman to captain his club to the British League title in the 1980s. When he sees that, he's there!

I think the one thing we can agree on is that we're not going to agree. I'd compare the debate to say one about the best Man Utd player of the last 20 years. Guys like Cantona, Beckham and Ronaldo were all brilliant for them for a short while, but guys like Giggs and Scholes have been top quality for a sustained time. Whoever you choose depends on what floats your boat the most..short-term brilliance or long-term quality. Anyway, now I am talking football, it's probably time to take my leave from the debate! cheers Chris

It is an enjoyable debate. The reason being there is no clear cut candidate. I think we can all agree that Mike Lee's World Final win of 1980 was the greatest performance by any British rider in the decade. That goes without saying - it was outstanding. But thereafter, I would argue that Chris Morton, Kenny Carter, Simon Wigg and Kelvin Tatum all had the better record for the last nine years of the decade. If Mike hadn't gone off the rails and maintained his excellence, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Rob makes a valid point about Mort's World Final record being poor. For a rider of his ability, it really is. He must cringe whenever he sees it. Nonetheless, he still reached the final more than any other Brit in the 80s, proving he was amongst the best in the world for a sustained period. There's no doubt that the World Championship is the acid test for speedway riders, but it should also not paint the whole picture. Some riders are probably quite flattered by their World Championship record..eg. Finn Thompson, Kelly Moran, Kai Niemi. Other riders records in the World Championships probably provide an unfair reflection of ther standing. Bobby Schwartz is the obvious example. Guys like Shawn Moran and Phil Crump were also real top line performers for a long time, but you wouldn't think so if you just looked at their World Champs record. For me, Mort falls into this bracket too. As a final point on why I believe Mort to be the top British rider of the decade, I think I can confidently say that no British rider scored more points in the British League during the 1980s and no other rider scored more points for England. Indeed, Mort was top scoring for England against USA in test matches in 1980 and he was still doing the same in 1989. No one else gets anywhere near that high level of consistency through the decade.

So, if we do take the World Long Track seriously then Karl Maier was one of the very best speedway riders of the 80s? Sorry Rob, I simply can't go along with that. It was an event of some standing at one time, probably more so in the 70s when the real top dogs Olsen, Mauger, PC and Michanek all gave it a real go. But in the 80s Penhall, Carter, Nielsen, Ermolenko, Sigalos, Knudsen, Sanders - all bona fide top liners - hardly bothered. But as you quite rightly identify, its standing has altered as time has passed. Similarly with many other events. The World Pairs was a genuine biggie at one time, before it slipped into redundancy. The BLRC/ELRC was also perhaps the second biggest individual event on the calendar at one time..not any more. It's arguable that the World Cup Final has actually increased in standing in modern times. The point I am making is that it is very tricky to implement a formula to precisely measure different riders standings across a number of years based on selected competitions. The world indivdual championship - in whatever guise - is the one which has consistently been of the same standing throughout. Even then, you can interpret it in many different ways for Brits in the 80s.. Highest finish - Mike Lee Most finals - Chris Morton Best average - Les Collins (1 final), Jeremy Doncaster (2 finals) or Kenny Carter (3 finals) I don't have the precise science by any means..but I'm happy to have the debate