fatface

Here's someone who says there was no contact...then again, he had a few years to get his story straight then.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwL80jiK6no

To prove Dave Lanning 100% correct, I'll chip in too. Agree with Grachan. I too saw the footage you are referring to. It was shown on Central TV and was introduced by Gary Newbon on some sort of midweek sports show. It was on YouTube but seems to have gone now. For me, it was the clearest evidence that Penhall knocked Carter off. Carter didn't run out of room. He didn't hit the fence first, he was hit by Penhall and that's why he fell. Shame it's not still available, but somebody, somewhere must have it?! Anyone doubting there was contact, only needs to listen to Penhall's words when interviewed in the immediate aftermath (56:56 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuF9BWpEDXo ) "I felt a little bit and it was him". Strange thing to say if there was no contact? Also, can't agree with a previous poster who says the rider with the wheel in front has the right to choose their line entirely. If they are a length in front, then yes, I would agree. But if they are alongside a rider, then you are also saying they have the right to knock someone off. That's not right. That's why Hans Nielsen was rightly excluded for knocking off Sam Ermolenko at the 1993 Final. To me, Penhall rode the rider and not the track. Watch the race again. Penhall actually makes the best start. But he goes looking for Carter right from tapes up, that's why PC and Crump go clear. Bruce Penhall was not a dirty rider. But with the whole backdrop of the rivalry, the event being Penhall's last meeting, points already dropped, the high stakes and the rough treatment handed out by Carter on the straight - make no mistake that was an angry, fired-up and increasingly desperate Penhall that drove into that bend. He simply had to beat Carter then or his title hopes had effectively gone.

Had. Was. There's the key words in your post. Juicey Brucey was great and indeed looked like an 80s pop star or film star with his big highlighted hair. He wouldn't have looked out of place next to George Michael, Don Johnson, Simon Le Bon. That was 30 years ago. Today, Tai Woffinden would not look out of place next to David Beckham, Justin Bieber or Harry Styles. All tattooed, fashionable icons, massively popular with the young. This is 2013.

I've been hugely impressed and surprised with the eloquence of Tai Woffinden this year. He has been thoughtful, respectful and interesting whether he has been speaking to the Speedway Star or the BBC. I say surprised, perhaps I also carried some prejudiced notions that someone with loads of tattoos and ear lobe hoops could not be so decent. But that is what he has come across as, a thoroughly decent fella, a credit to the sport and his family. On reflection now, although its not my taste, I think his tattoos are actually a good thing. He looks like a young, edgy motorcyclist. Isn't that what we want from a modern speedway world champion?

Just back from Torun and I agree with the majority of posters. Holder lost control on the first turn and as a consequence knocked off Pedersen. It wasn't deliberate, but it was his fault. No other riders were involved so how it can be called first bend bunching is beyond me. Having said that I have no beef with Chris Holder being world champ - he is the best in the world right now. Historically, I expect this incident to be seen in the same light as the Nielsen/Knudsen incident of 1986. Holder was lucky to get away with it on Saturday, but he is thoroughly deserving of the title and few of us would begrudge him it.

Torun is a track which really brings out in the open a rider's full repetoire of skills. In my opinion, Chris Holder is the better all round rider and the best in the world right now. If he handles the pressure, he'll prove that on Saturday. That's my head talking. But my heart has a soft spot for that pantomime villain Pedersen. Got my tickets - can't wait to see it all unfold!

Riga would be one I'd go to - cracking city. Did Daugvapils a few years back, don't know why anyone would bother going back though. It's a tidy enough stadium, but a pain to get to and a bit of a ghost town.

In the British League: Chris Morton, Shawn Moran, Peter Collins, Andy Smith, Jan O Pedersen, Sam Ermolenko, Mark Loram In the National League: Richard Green, Alan Mogridge, Martin Goodwin, Les Collins, Thierry Hilaire (remember him?)

I have a spare ticket for the Grand Prix this weekend. It's a cracking view from the second tier, right above the pits on the entrance to the track. It's £83 on the ticket. I can sell it for £50. PM me if you want it. You can collect it from me in person in Cardiff.

And the facts are where exactly? All I've seen are opinions so far

That way there would have been some GPs where we already have a winner before the final. Genius.

Apologies, I had the impression it had gone.

Sounds feasible. It's the part of the park I am least familiar with. At least with Hackney, there is the heritage factor too. Saw Hackney Speedway as part of the exhibits at the London Museum of Docklands recently. It also showed a map of how the area has changed with Waterden Road erased from existence now. Here's hoping.

Where do you reckon then? The site of the Basketball Arena (which will go nuts and bolts to Rio) is very close to the village, which will ultimately be housing and inevitably problematic. The location of the BMX track is ideal, but that is being retained for BMX. The only obvious option for me is the athletics warm-up track beside the stadium: http://www.constructionphotography.com/Details.aspx?ID=49044&TypeID=1&searchtype=&contributor=0&licenses=1,2&sort=REL&cdonly=False&mronly=False&images=True&video=True&documents=True Unless you have heard anything different?

Yes, nickthenumpty I did. Guess what? There will also be empty seats at Cardiff. But will the consistent 45k crowd be down due to the Olympics? Not on your nelly. Come back and ask us again after August. That will also give you ample time to work on your spelling and grammar.

I have to speak up for my fave Chris Morton. He won everything there was to win except the World Final and he reached that on seven occasions. He gathered over 100 England caps and captained both his club and country. I am biased, but I'm sure 99/100 would rank him well above some of the names you have mentioned.

Your analysis seems bonkers to me. Cardiff has held a pretty steady attendance of 45,000 every year since it launched in 2001. Although we have been in economic difficult times since 2008, it hasn't been enough to put people off going to Cardiff. We haven't gone Greek after all. I don't really follow why you think the Olympics will have a big impact on Cardiff. The Olympics will be done and dusted by then and I can't imagine all speedway fans blowing all their money on the badminton and synchronised swimming. It is an entirely different market of people. You might as well argue that Cardiff will suffer because of its clash with the Edinburgh Festival.

What odd behaviour from someone who only a few posts earlier says of the SGP "it might as well take place on Mars for all the relevance it has to me"

On one hand it is amazing. But on another it's not. If we take Ivan Mauger as an exception (and he was very exceptional) 40 odd year old speedway riders would have been long retired. I don't know what the exact reason is for increased longevity now. but it's a definite pattern. Improved fitness? Better nutrition? Professional support teams? The bikes are less physically demanding to ride? All these are probably factors. What's certainly true is that for a professional speedway rider times have moved on a lot from driving across the UK and Europe in a Citroen CX relying on motorway service mush for your every meal. If there has been no significant physical deterioration or weakening of their desire in Hancock, Gollob, Crump, then there's no reason why they can't still be the same brilliant riders today that they were 15 years ago. That makes it tough for the younger riders to break through as the elder statesman have the experience and - as they are established winners - the very best backers too. It doesn't mean it's impossible though. Chris Holder, Darcy Ward, Emil Sayfutdinov have all show glimpes and when they get more experience, there's no reason why they cannot be up there fighting too. It's important to remember that speedway is not alone in elder competitors enjoying success well beyond what we previously though possible. Paul Scholes and Ryan Giggs are still cutting it at Premiership Football. The latter has been particularly sprightly in the last year or so! I also follow athletics and boxing quite closely - possibly the most physically demanding sports of all. The Klitchkos are both pushing (if not past) 40 and are still at the top of their game. In athletics, the winner of the women's Olympic marathon in Beijing was 38. Paula Radcliffe and Mara Yamauchi are our top marathon runners and both are 38/39. When Kelly Holmes won double Olympic gold, she was 34. That was in the middle distances - previously the preserve of the young. Ten years earlier, no-one would believe someone would be at their athletic peak at 34, but she was. This a sport where it's purely the body, not part body, part 500cc machine too. I think what I am saying is that, yes 40 is a remarkable age to be World Speedway Champion. But what we previously thought impossible in sport is not anymore. Maybe 40 really is the new 30? Not sure if I am saying that for the purposes of the argument or to console my own ageing body

Yes, your original point was that people are not going to continually put money into a sport without a return. My point is yes, they are. history proves that. We're over 80 years in now in British Speedway history..not many promoters have made a fortune..hundreds have lost a fortune..yet still we roll on. Your further points on the Polish League and GP clash are also rather flimsy and really smack of someone desperately grasping for reasons to prove the GP series will ultimately fail. You are certainly not alone in your entrenched views on this forum. There are more than a few who will only be happy if we revert to a one-off final at Wembley with all the riders wearing monkey masks and riding JAPs and the final shown as a delayed broadcast by ITV's World of Sport fronted by Dickie Davies. But like it or not, the GP is here to stay and has made some really significant strides in recent years - the NZ Grand Prix probably being the biggest one. Our World Championship is playing to more live audiences than it every has, in fantastic stadiums and to a global television audience of millions. It also now has a better opportunity than ever before to take our World Championship to fresh venues in Australia, USA and possibly Argentina. I certainly didn't reckon that would be the case 20 years ago. Credit where credit's due.

Chelsea FC, Man City, Real Madrid. Nearly every single British speedway club and nearly every British football club for that matter. Although I wouldn't do it. There are plenty of people in this world with deep pockets who are willing to take a loss to be closely involved with a sport they love. It's surprising a speedway fan hasn't clocked on to this yet

It's a well expressed view above and one that I concur with. An absolute peak Lee and an absolute peak Collins is a very difficult one to separate. Indeed if we were judging all the greats merely at their absolutely top notch best, then these two are right at the very top. Arguably even better than Mauger. But you have to take into account longevity and in that regard PC trumps Lee. PC scored a maximum in the 1973 WTC final and in 1984 he won the World Pairs*. That's 12 years at world class level. Lee can claim 7 years at best - and that's being kind after a poor 1982. * footage from this final is very rare, but there is an absolute vintage moment from PC when he outfoxes Erik Gundersen for a critical point

Some valid points, some very obvious points too. It's all too easy just to dismiss the younger generation as playstation-playing layabouts. I don't think that's true. I work for a major youth sports organisation and we come across thousands of active, lively youngsters who have just as much vim and vigour as any previous generation. What is a lot different to the past is the sheer breadth of choice of what to do with their leisure time for every young person now be it in sport or arts. Ultimately for an already minor sport like speedway it means a much thinner spread of young people trying our sport. This is exacerbated in the UK by lack of track time and cost. To my mind the best way of working with our very shallow talent pool has to be through grass track racing. That is the amateur grass-roots of our sport. Do the BSPA have any collaboration with the grass track world and if so what? If not, then why not? That surely is the most appropriate first rung on the competition pathway for any budding British speedway rider.

I didn't include them because I am a rabid age-ist! I just took 20 names off the top of my head. If you don't think this is a good enough 20, well it should make your job a lot easier then. Are you going to be able to argue Mike Bast is better than any of those? Or are you going to change the subject again?

I can't help but think you are doing this with your tongue firmly in your cheek. But I will play along anyway. On another thread you even spoke about Mike Bast being in the world's all-time top 20 riders! So, can I be so bold to set you a little challenge? Here's 20 riders - in no particular order - that most would consider in or around the world's top 20 all-time. Pick any one you like and make a credible argument that Mike Bast was a better rider: Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Ivan Mauger, Ole Olsen, Bruce Penhall, Tony Rickardsson, Erik Gundersen, Peter Collins, Hans Nielsen, Jack Young, Jason Crump, Tomasz Gollob, Anders Michanek, Greg Hancock, Per Jonsson, Michael Lee, Bjorn Knutsson, Sam Ermolenko