fatface

Great. So glad to hear I was being so silly and things are so great. Brilliant news! Got my pen and paper ready here, can you just give me the numbers then of those bigger crowds that I was so oblivious to?

Yes, most would like that. But we have to realistic with what the sport can afford. I'd like to see Scarlett Johannson on Coronation Street every week. But I don't think that will ever happen.

I can understand people's frustrations with golden tacticals and other silly rules like rider replacement, guests, doubling up etc. To me, these are all just symptoms of the unbalanced nature of the league, high costs and far too many riders whose priorities are elsewhere. All the silly rules have been brought in to paper over the cracks and try and make meetings competitve that otherwise just would not be. The vast majority of fans want: * competitive racing * reasonable facilities * a familiar team to support * variety of opposition This is much more likely if the promoters: * go without GP riders * restructure the leagues to North/South or one big league In 17 pages, I have seen no evidence to suggest that the top dollar riders actually put more bums on seats in league speedway. Everyone hates the salaries given out to top footballers. But - depressingly - they do put bums on seats, attract mega TV contracts and sell millions of shirts. You can't say the same for speedway's top riders. Sadly, Tai Woffinden and Darcy Ward don't add 1,000s to any league attendance, so why are we paying them so much? There is no novelty of seeing the top guys as there once was. They are on TV reguarly. Beyond, that, if I really had the craving to see Ward or Woffinden I could have them on my smartphone or tablet within 30 seconds. The money saved on top riders can be used to improve the overall experience of attending live speedway (decent toilets would be a start at some decrepit stadia) and build more evenly balanced teams. Personally, I'd also like to see North/South leagues leading to a play-off final, which would also save costs and increase the likelihood of better away support.

Come again?! So, the Plymouths of this world are asking the Pooles of this world not to drop their prices? a - I find this difficult to believe b - what on earth has it do with them what another promoter charges?

Thirty years ago speedway's top riders had two bikes and a mechanic and raced front of healthy crowds in some pretty decent stadiums. Now the top riders have 5 or 6 bikes, a team of mechanics and tuners and race in front of a fraction of the crowds in pretty shabby stadiums. It doesn't take a genius to work out where the money is flooding, why supporters are bemoaning lack of value and shoddy facilities. To suggest that the answer is to import more high quality riders at a higher cost when there is no evidence it would drive up crowds is lunacy. You only need to take one look around a speedway crowd to see what sort of market we are looking at. It's pretty much a working class crowd with not a great deal of disposable income. We need to provide an entertaining, competitive product at a good value price. If I were to pick a business model that speedway should model itself on it would be Sports Direct. They provide decent quality at a reasonable price, that's why they are always rammed. Saying Elite League speedway should spend more on higher quality riders is like saying Sports Direct should start stocking Gucci shoes.

Does the presence of Tai Woffinden really make that much difference to crowd numbers? I'd be interested to see the evidence. Has there been a significant rise in crowds at Wolves since he became World Champion? Or does the visit of Wolves to Eastbourne or King's Lynn mean they get a big boost in numbers that week? I think we'd have to see some numbers to believe that is the case. IMO people go speedway to see close, competitive live racing no matter what level it is at. Thanks to the TV coverage of the GP series, we get a regular fix of the top riders anyway, so there is much less of a craving to see them than there might have been in the past. When Ivan Mauger, Ole Olsen or Peter Collins came with their teams to your home track in the 1970s, it might be the ONLY chance you get to see those riders for a year, bar a couple of highlights packages on TV - which you couldn't video - never mind Sky+

One night for UK racing is a pipe dream. What works for Poole wouldn't work for Eastbourne and wouldn't work for Lakeside. Every track shares its facilities with another tennant and have to work around them and what works for their immediate locality. So that's a no go. No promoter in their right mind would switch to a night that doesn't suit them for the percieved greater good. Most will agree that the costs of running an Elite League club just don't tally with the money coming through the door. So, the options are to saturate it with more top riders and pray to god more people come through the gates to pay for inflated costs. Or, cut our cloth accordingly, go without GP riders and make the league more of a Premier League standard. For me, it's pretty obvious. Clubs that have stepped up from Premier to Elite have seen costs soar and income plummet. The team might cost at least double, but do the crowds double? I think its time for a bit of reality. Britain is a low fourth on top riders lists now behind the GP, Poland and Sweden. So, let's go without GP riders and create the best product we have with the affordable materials at our disposal.

I've done a few PR events involving Boris Johnson in London. Whilst I am some distance from him politically, I have to admit he is one of the most charismatic people I have ever met. He is also a quite brilliant orator, one who can charm any audience from fellow politicians to young children. It's what makes him so powerful and potentially, so dangerous. As for his involvement with speedway, I think it best he is ushered back to his blissful ignorance. Speedway takes up land and not very profitable land either. I suspect Boris would see all speedway venues as possible capital and housing projects. Do we want a country of Shards?

100% agree. Been to an FA Cup semi there on a Saturday afternoon and an England game on a midweek evening. Both times, the atmosphere was a bit flat to be honest. There is a valid point to be made - by Sidney - that it might attract more international visitors who wish to fly in. I would also imagine if BSI did switch from Cardiff to Wembley in the first year the crowd would probably go up due to the novelty factor with plenty of British fans making the trip. But when people experience the hassle of getting to Wembley, the high costs of food, drink and accomodation in London, the run-down surrounding areas and the surprisingly uninspired stadia, then many will think twice about returning for a second visit. I think a Wembley GP would just fizzle away. Whereas Cardiff has proven itself attractive for thousands of returning customers. 40,000 people can't be wrong!

Sorry Sidney, but I think you're looking back on a time when Wembley was head and shoulders the best stadium in the UK. It simply isn't anymore. The new Wembley is very functional, but devoid of any real charm - the same goes for the surrounding area. In fact with the escalators and sushi bars in the concourse, Wembley can feel more like a shopping centre than a stadium. In my recent experience, I'd rank the Millennium Stadium, the Emirates and Twickenham as superior stadiums.

And there it is...the real reason for starting such petty gripes, so you could tell everyone you had a box and were on the centre green. Utterly irrelevant to whether Cardiff was a great spectacle or not for spectators, but you crowbarrred it in anyway. Maybe you think it makes you seem special? Actually it makes you sound like a total wally.

We'll have to take your word on that. Or we could judge it based on the fans voices out here in the public domain.

Torun is a great trip. Nice enough town, superb stadium and a great track. Preferred the mid-summer slot to end of season mind and getting tickets is a weird process. Bydgoszcz also is a decent town, great track, not such a great stadium though. Prague is a superb place, but the stadium and track are a bit ropey. I'd consider Riga as its a great place to visit. Went there on our way to a Daugvapils GP, which is a dead end town as you are ever likely to visit.

Dead right. I lived in London for several years until recently. As much as I love the place, I certainly couldn't go along with the idea that a Wembley or Olympic Park GP would surpass Cardiff. Not a chance. The area around Wembley is a dump, full of nothing but fried chicken outlets and tacky old sports bars. On the other hand you've got the Olympic Park and the glistening but soul-less shopping centre that is Westfield. Neither holds anywhere near the charm of Cardiff City Centre. As an earlier poster points out, there would also be much less chance (probably none) of public funding to help bring a GP to London. So can you really take the chunk of money from the Welsh Tourist Board, Welsh Government and other sources away and STILL expect BSI to come up with the same spectacle we see at Cardiff? If BSI were silly enough (and they're not) to move from Cardiff to London we would be most likely served up a dliluted product at an inflated cost. And that would have no long-term future. As it is, we have had around 40k turning out every year for 15 years for a minority sport. That's pretty good going and anyone would be a fool to risk that.

I'd agree with that. It would be a more modest, but realistic ambition to have a GP at the new Belle Vue. I wouldn't see it as the same pilgrimage that is Cardiff, but I expect it would be something that appealed to the hardcore.

I am. It's not openfor business yet and with the chief tennants set to be football and athletics, it presents major obstacles with neither likely to want a speedway cutting up their surfaces. I also don't believe the turf to be laid in a similar pallet form as it is in Cardiff? On the atmosphere front, again I just don't see the Olympic Park generating the same feeling as Cardiff. The Millennium Stadium is a proper city centre site and one of the great joys of going to Cardiff is once you are there you don't have to worry about transport for the rest of the weekend. The pubs, hotels, shops are all a short stroll from the stadium. You can be finishing your pint across the road with 5 mins to tapes up and still be in your seat in time. As lovely as the Olympic Park is, its a fair stroll to the stadium no matter what angle you come at it from and whilts its as convenient as any thing possibly can be in the sprawl that is London, its still pretty darn inconvenient for most people. In all the time I have been going to Cardiff and chatting with fellow supporters in bars and the hotels, it strikes me that the core of attendees are those that used to go to speedway and make Cardiff their one meeting of the year - it's an annual treat. If BSI did decide to stage two GPs in the UK in one year in Cardiff and London, then they would run a serious risk of that 40,000 crowd choosing one or the other and rather than having one mega event, we would have two rather underwhelming ones. I am one of those supporters who very rarely attends league speedway away from Cardiff and I certainly would not go to two UK GPs in one year. I thorougly enjoyed the weekend. There was the usual great atmosphere around town, an incredible atmosphere in the stadium, the event presentation was the best its ever been and the racing- whilst not being up there with 2007 or 2004 - was still pretty good. Count me in again for next year :-)

I imagine in the event of a 'yes' vote, then Glasgow and Edinburgh would still remain as part of British Speedway. Quite simply Scottish Speedway would not be viable and there's no strong reason to cut the Scots adrift for a minority sport like speedway. But there are plenty of imponderables. What happens if a big sponsor comes in to fund British Speedway including Team GB? Will the BSPA be happy to pass a share of funds over the border? Or, on the other side of the coin..will Edinburgh and Glasgow be happy to pitch in to fund any Team GB activities? Would EU riders be able to gain employment in Scotland which may not be part of EU? Would Commonwealth riders and other nationalities be able to gain work permits through a new Scottiish Home Office to ride for Edinburgh/Glasgow? Would the BSPA allocate any of its major events to Scotland? Who would fund a Scotland International Team? The small world of speedway has the same uncertainties that the rest of the post-independence world does for Scotland.

Not my taste, but I am 40 now and I would rather young people found him cool than he dressed like I do! He looks young, edgy and well in keeping with current fashion. He comes across as eloquent and a charming guy. He's also exciting and British, so I'd say he's actually the perfect package for our World Champion. If Tai Woffinden and say, Kenneth Bjerre or Jarek Hampel went to a School Fete, who do you think would make the biggest impression on the kids? As for the topic, no I didn't see him as World Champion material either. His career seemed to be reaching a plateau 3-4 years ago. But it's obvious to us all now that his progress temporarily stalled due to the failing health of his dad, which must have been a huge strain. Now, he looks like he could go on and win multiple World Titles. If he carries on like he is, he could certainly be making a strong case for being the best British rider ever, I think one of the key parts of his progress has been working on his fitness. I am always surprised at the number of speedway riders who neglect this vital ingredient to being the best. Mauger and Rickardson both took their health and fitness very seriously and look what it did for them.

It is a bit of a pin step forward and I am just about 60/40 that this will eventually happen. Either way, the PR behind the project has been poor and has done nothing to inspire confidence in the promotion being the right people to see it through. I can't help but think they need someone - preferably from outside speedway - who has the depth of experience of dealing with local councils, sport funding bodies and NGBs (national governing bodies) in getting these type of facility projects over the line. Talking about the shape of the track and the fence is of slight interest to speedway fans, but it means naff all to councillors and funders. I worked in athletics for many years and I remember going to a big presentation by Edinburgh City Council where they were going to build a fantastic new facility with an indoor and outdoor track. The artistic impressions were fantastic, the plans were big and bold. It never happened. http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/10/12_edinburgh_today_-_sports_centres.htm Things can change and if there isn't some real concrete progress soon, things are ever more likely to change. ps. Wonder how my brick is getting on?

Yes, 1990 may not have been Nielsen at his absolute best. But he was still the best as far as almost everyone was concerned. Hence he was red-hot favourite. But as above it's right and proper that Per Jonsson went down as a World Champion. I actually thought it was less a Nilsen clanger, more an example of Jonsson's cleverness. He was absolutely brilliant at getting his wheels in line quicker than others. As for 1992. Yes, by then, Jonssson was in my eyes no1. I went to a few World Champs meetings that year including the semi at Bradford and the final. His from-behind wins against Havelock in the semi and Knudsen in the final were the best rides of both meetings - he was probably the only rider at the time who could consistently beat the best from behind. But again, Havvy was a fair champ in my eyes. He was certainly one of the top riders in the world that year and when his chance came, he grabbed it. Finally, excuse me giving my trumpet a wee toot. On the way to the 92 final, I actually had Handberg in my top three. My Dad and everyone else on the coach thought I was way out. But I felt it was the sort of line-up that was ripe for someone like him to emerge from the pack. It wasn't the best line-up ever. Still say 1989 was weaker though. At least by 1992 the FIM had got rid of the absurd Intercontinental and Continental system.

And I agree with most of that. Blimey - this thread is most agreeable I take your point on 1990. But Nielsen was an odds-on favourite that night and just wasn't at his sharpest. However, I do rate Per Jonsson very highly and think of him as nothing but a bona fide fully deserving champ. But I think you are spot on regarding Moran's weird disqualification months later. I reckon if he had won the run-off that night, then it would have been swept under the carpet and we would never have known anything about it. Where I do disagree is Hans being subdued at Odsal since Gundersen's accident. Think you're letting the Nielsen fan in you make excuses for him there. No one ever suggested Gundersen's accident had anything to do with Odsal, so there was no reason for anyone to be spooked by the place. There was also nothing subdued about the way Nielsen shoved Tatum aside in the final. It's just on this particular night, he didn't produce his best form.

Agree. There are those riders who took a little while to win a title, but they were just too good not to win one eventually, riders like Hans Nielsen and Jason Crump. There are others who were a tier below them who simply had to take the chance when it came. Guys like Gary Havelock and (begrudgingly) Egon Muller seized the day when their chance came. Riders like Dave Jessup and Shawn Moran didn't quite do it (I'm thinking 85 by the way, when he was heavily fancied, but didn't perform).

There's also getting the facts completely wrong, It was Jessup's first race where he packed up. Where you really there? Seems a strange muddled recollection. I also baulk when I hear of Jessup being robbed by engine failure in 1978. It's one thing packing up in a later ride when the title is within your grasp. It's quite another breaking down in your first ride, knowing the title is beyond you and not having to deal with the mounting pressure thereafter. Jessup's REAL chance came in 1980 when he was the top rider in the world that year. He beat Lee and PC in his all-important opener, but let three points slip by in his remaining races. No engine failures then. No Mauger, no Olsen and a debutant Penhall. But plenty of pressure.

Thanks very much Dave for digging it out. Thanks too very much to you Grachan for YouTubing it. Funny, but even with this clip, it seems people see what they want to see. Gary Newbon doesn't see the contact, I can. Isn't there a figure on a grassy knoll there who knows exactly what happened?

I just can't buy the notion that Kenny fell on his own. It's a weird place on the track to fall on your own: five metres from the safety fence, entering the straight. The only explanation is that he was hit from the side. The unearthed footage clearly showed that (dammit, I wish someone still had it!). But, I've no real desire to go round and round in circles with it though. None of us are going to change our minds 32 years on! What I do find interesting to ponder on is the scenarios had the decision gone differently.. 1. Race not stopped, PC wins and Penhall has a run-off with Les Collins...my money would have been on Les 2. Penhall excluded, Carter wins re-run and title Bearing in mind the above possible alternate endings, I wonder... 1. Would Penhall have stayed retired? He got his Hollywood ending (ironically, his acting career didn't). But would the temptation have been too great to comeback and try and reclaim the title? 2. Might life turned out different for Kenny Carter had he won the title in 1982? Would it have made him a more balanced, content and settled individual? I don't know either way, but would be interested to know what others think.