fatface

I went to the Exeter v Russia match and it attracted a huge crowd. It was also covered in a special programme on the local ITV channel that night. TSW I think? Exeter was chosen as most thought it would best suit the Russians. But they just couldn't find their way round the place at all.

One thing they should seriously think about is an independent panel to advise them. As it is they are a motley crew with their individual interests their overwhelming priority. The widespread good of speedway comes a lowly second - if indeed it is that high. I don't see them ever appointing a commissioner to oversee the whole governance of the sport. But they would do well to consider setting up an independent panel consisting of ex-riders, supporters, business experts, marketing experts and high ranking officials from other (succcessful) sports to consult with and advise on matters affecting speedway in Britain as a whole. An official body such as this might just be the best chance to get some unbiased, clear and strategic thinking at these gatherings.

I'd bow to your superior knowledge on that one then Norman!

No slight on Erik - or Hans for that matter. But Carter would pop up on Breakfast TV, Question of Sport. Lee had a column I believe for the Daily Mirror. Penhall was on Tiswas..think he even got gunked?! Penhall was the Californian beach hunk, Lee the bad boy biker, Carter the brash Yorkshireman. They were instantly recognisable personalities and very marketable. Erik was/is a Danish nice guy. To put it is marketing terms, it doesn't shift cornflakes.

Blimey Waihekeaces. It's sounds like you and I had almost exactly the same speedway existence in the 1980s! Though I ended mine following Exeter as my parents upped sticks and headed south in 1988. Fond memories. But as you say, by and large it was a decade of deterioration for the sport. In terms of the personalities of the sport, the decade started with Mauger, Olsen, Collins, Lee, Penhall and Carter at the forefront. All genuine household names. The latter three were gone for too soon and they were replaced by Gundersen and Nielsen, who were incredible riders, but in all honesty, they had zero cross-over appeal. It was also a decade where the World Final went from Wembley and Gothenburg to Vojens and Norden. I don't think there has ever been a decade where the sport has deteriorated so much. Some of it was self-inflicted. Some was simply bad luck, eg. you can point to the Bradford City fire distaster as the real death knell for Hyde Road. It would have failed new regulations on every level.

As a huge Chris Morton fan, I'd like to believe this to be true. It's not really accurate though is it? Mort was - at his best - a dark horse for the podium on World Final night and probably only in 1980, 81 and at a push 83. He may well have nicked a GP or two on his night. But he would never have won a series like Loram did. No chance.

I've heard it said more than once that Mark Loram was a lucky winner in 2000. I couldn't disagree more. Over the whole series, no-one performed better. I think his worst finish was 5th or 6th. People should also remember that the strange scoring system back then where each GP winner was given 25 points, 5 more than the runner-up and a huge 9 more than fourth place. So, for Mark to win overall that year - despite never collecting the over inflated score for winning the final - actually enhances his victory in my eyes. It is not as if he was incapable of winning GPs, he did win them, just not in 2000.

Agreed. Mort is my all-time favourite, but he didn't quite have what it took to win the big one. That's why I couldn't really add his name - nor the rest - to any list of world champs that never were. I still say Mort's CV stacks up favourably against Billy Sanders though. Over 100 caps, Intercontinental and British Final wins, BLRC, World Team and World Pairs gold medals - as top scorer too. It's a pretty stellar CV.

I actually don't think there is anybody who didn't win it who WOULD DEFINITELY have won it under different circumstances. As a student of the history of the sport and far too young to be witness, probably Jack Parker and Tom Farndon are the best shouts. As for more recent times, Tomasz Gollob had the title of "best rider never to win...." absolutely stitched up until he went and won it. He really blew that one ;-) Can't go with Billy Sanders or some other names mentioned. I thought he punched above his weight getting on the rostrum. 1984 was his big chance: virtually guaranteed to be a new champion, relatively inexperienced field, big names missing/injured (Carter,Lee,Sigalos) and he was a renouned track expert. He didn't do very well though did he? I'd have Carter, Sigalos, Morton, S Moran, Knudsen all above him from that era alone.

That's a very fair point and historically very true. But I think in this instance, there would be more on the table to appeal to PL clubs. The gap between the two divisions in terms of quality has never been closer, so it wouldn't require radical surgery of each team. I also think that the PL clubs will relish some of their fixtures a lot more. For Somerset and Plymouth for example, meetings against Swindon and Poole would be a really big deal.

I agree that doubling up and constant guests are a problem. Pretty much everyone does. That's the reason for this suggested re-structure. By taking away GP riders and putting the leagues together in a regional structure you would have less guests and no doubling up. Plus, the added bonuses of costs saved and more local matches. Currently promoters are having to structure a fixture list around Swedish League, Polish League, GPs and - most ridiculously - when one of your riders might be riding for another club in the UK. There's not much we can do about Sweden and Poland, but we can make some decisions to eliminate the difficulties caused by the lattter two.

Don't think anybody would be stipulating. But you might have unearthed another benefit. There'd be a greater incentive for riders to be based near to their club and if promoters are paying travel fees for riders, greater incentive to employ local riders and (gulp) maybe even develop some local talent? No matter the sport, fans always have a special bond with members of their club that are local boys.

At least have a bash at it - otherwise you're endorsing the current structure.

Woof, woof! Grrrr! Can't say I agree, but you make some fair points. Believe it or not, I would also like two leagues of promotion and relegation, all the world's best riders here and massive crowds. It's just not realistic though in our minority sport. The big problem with relegation is that most PL clubs don't want to go up and EL clubs don't want to go down. Also take your point on Sunday morning racing, but speedway is different to those other sports. The majority are sports more for the participants than the spectators. Also, Moto GP is a full weekend. Speedway is like football, rugby in that its two hours entertainment. For me, regionalisation is the way to go. It's not perfect by any means. But it will save costs, it will increase interest in local rivalries and gives the sport a sensible structure going forwards. I would also say, that unlike the previous one big league incarnation, there would not have to be massive changes to the teams. My team were Exeter and they had to sign Mark Loram, Simon Wigg and a couple of Czech internationals to be competitive. This time round, I don't think there would be major surgery required for EL and PL teams to meet in the middle. Strip away the GP riders from the EL replaced with a lower order man, add in a strong heat leader into each PL team and I think you have some pretty competitive matches. I note someone said they would not be happy about travelling to Plymouth in a South League. Well, you are never going to get a perfect fixture list for your team. There's plenty to knock the BSPA for, but the geographic breadth of the South of England is not one!

I like your passion and I agree with you entirely. I would hope riders at any level don't have the attitude that speedway owes them a living as it certainly doesn't. Riders should have one team in the UK only. All they are doing is hogging an extra team place that could go to someone else and contributing hugely to the Mickey Mouse image of the sport. If they want extra income then by all means pick up what you can abroad. If not, then get a job to support your speedway! There's a few things that puzzle me in this area, particularly in relation to young British riders... 1) Maybe somebody has a good reason for this. But I can't understand why the grass-track scene isn't buzzing like it used to with promising British riders. We all know track time is limited for speedway, so why aren't our up and coming riders out there racing on the grass at weekends? Alright its not exactly the same as speedway, but there's many cross-over skills acquired on the grass. For the talented, there is also the chance of prize money and perhaps extra sponsorship. Is grass-track beneath the modern rider? It certainly wasn't for Collins, Wigg, Doncaster, Cross, Loram, Morton, Screen, Smith, Schofield. A higher quality of rider racing grass may also pull up the standards of other grassers, maybe unearthing a few more speedway riders? 2) I have doubts the doubling up rule is benefitting our riders. To me, someone like Craig Cook has potential. But he has stalled this year. It seems to me that his easier pickings in the PL are a comfort blanket for him. Wouldn't he be more likely to progress if his only focus were on one club racing in the EL? Wouldn't he be hungrier and more motivated to improve at the top level if his income depended on it? 3) Interesting interview with Mike Lee in the Speedway Star about him rebuilding his life (again). But what jumped out at me is that he was tuning for NL riders. Hang on a minute, what are NL riders doing spending their money on one of the world's most renowned tuners to get a little extra out of their machine? Firstly, shouldn't they concentrate on getting better before seeking this tiny percentage improvement in their equipment? Secondly, if they are so keen to eek out some extra, why don't they have a go it themselves and actually learn something about a speedway engine as part of their apprenticeship? Is it really rocket science?

I've discussed this and put forward North and South Leagues with a play-off final as a proposal on a seperate thread. I believe it to be the most viable model for the future of league speedway in this country. You look at some of the fixtures on the calendar and you wonder how they make them pay. Particularly in the PL. Plymouth is my nearest team and I do wonder when they go on their huge jaunts to Edinburgh, Glasgow, Berwick, Workington or Newcastle how is this viable - on both sides? How are the huge travel costs being met for riders and team officials? How many away fans are likely to make that trip? And for the home promotion, Plymouth are no great attraction, so you wonder if its a fixture they too would rather go without. It's simply not sustainable in the long-term. In the EL there are less extreme examples of this. But even Belle Vue are fairly marooned in the north and you'd have to assume that they get the lowest number of visiting supporters out of all EL clubs. Much as it pains me to admit it, Belle Vue are also not the huge attraction on the road that they once were. There was a time when PC, Mort and all the rest were one of the 'must-see' matches in any club's season. Those days are long gone. So, again, you wonder if Lakeside v Belle Vue or Eastbourne v Belle Vue would really be missed on the fixture list by fans, riders or promoters. A regional split would give away fans a better chance of reaching an away meeting and also has much more resonance for home support. I believe the fans would respond much better to Sheffield v Belle Vue, Ipswich v King's Lynn and Rye House v Lakeside that they would to plenty of meetings in their current fixture list. To answer your question ch958. Here's my split: ELITE LEAGUE - NORTH Belle Vue, Sheffield, Berwick, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Workington, Newcastle, Leicester, Birmingham (if revived), Coventry, Wolverhampton, Redcar ELITE LEAGUE - SOUTH Plymouth, Somerset, Poole, Swindon, Eastbourne, Lakeside, Rye House, Peterborough, Ipswich, King's Lynn, Scunthorpe You are right of course ch958. The split is not easy. But I still believe there are more attractive fixtures here than we have at present. Besides if there are certain fixtures that would be missing here that strongly resonate with two particular clubs fans, then there is nothing stopping them having their own challenge/cup matches. In the 90s, Wolves and Cradley could be racing for a packet of crisps and it would still pack in the crowds, despite being of very little interest to anyone outside the black country. Ditto, Edinburgh and Glasgow matches are also always spicy occasions that attract healthy support be it in the league or for a haggis supper. Packaged right, I believe this is a league structure that would be attractive to Sky. It will give them more tracks to visit, more derby matches (likely better crowds) and more clubs utimately in line for the same prize - the Elite League title. Furthermore, with a more affordable North/South model, this would surely be a more enticing prospect for existing clubs to step up (Stoke, Mildenhall?), former clubs to return (Isle of Wight, Bradford, Oxford, Reading?) or new speedways to form. Football's North and South Conference were launched in 2004 to sit below the Conference and makes much more economic sense for clubs run on similar tight budgets to speedway clubs.

Bizarre. Utterly bizarre. I am making the point very clearly that GP riders are not offering value. Yet you insist on trotting out Emil Sayfutdinov as an example to prove I am wrong. You probably could not choose a worse example to support your argument if you tried. In my above post I explained that the initial interest in his arrival was due to the sheer novelty of his presence. I used the word novelty three times. Did you miss it? Novelty. There it is again. Why do you think 40,000 people pay a decent chunk to go to the British GP every year? Yes, its the world's best riders, yes its the best stadium you will see speedway in. But its special because its only once a year. It's a novelty (there's that word again for you). Do you think if the British GP took place every week in Cardiff 40,000 would rock up every week? I'm beginning to wonder if you do believe that would be the case. Coventry speculated and didn't accumulate when it came to Emil Sayfutdinov. It was a gamble that didn't work. Whilst it sparked extra interest at first. It quickly ebbed away. The novelty went (that's no5 for you). He missed loads of matches and it simply didn't work out. If it was boom time when he was around, isn't it strange that Coventry nor any other British club has ever forked out to bring him back? Isn't that proof enough that even the biggest stars in the sport cannot deliver value for money to our league speedway? It's bleeding obvious in the case of Emil Sayfutdinov. As for Hans Andersen, who said 7 days a week? Who said lower pay? You're simply arguing with no-one there on points that haven't been made. Without GP riders we would have far less guests/rider replacement. Clubs would be able to structure a sensible fixture list without fear of absentees. Fans could also say - with confidence - which riders from which teams will be racing at their track when. On costs. my fair guess is that Andersen, Nicholls etc would save money on tuners as they wouldn't have to keep up with GP riders. As for what they will get paid, that's up to them to sort out with any promoter that wants them. I note you still are unable to provide your blueprint for the future? I think it's fair to assume you simply don't have the gumption to come up with one. However, I gave you a couple of easy yes/no questions to answer regarding crowds being halved without GP riders. I thought the simplicity of those would be within your range. Or are you conveniently ignoring them because they expose what complete drivel you are talking? I wonder if spelling is more your thing? Then again, probably not. I assume you meant to name yourself ONION on here instead? You're certainly very good at getting yourself in a pickle. Anyway, for those that are capable of reading and understanding English, here's my take on Poole. As I have said, they are the best supported and most successful club of recent times. There's a few reasons for that. Partly, Poole has become one of England's most wealthiest areas over the last couple of decades. There are certainly people around Poole who have more disposable income than most. And when it comes to watching live sport, Poole Speedway are the only show in town. So they get a decent crowd through the gate and one with a bit of cash on the hip to spend on beer and grub. Aligned with an excellent promoter in Matt Ford - one who has on occasions also bent the rules to breaking point - they have made the most of a promising environment to operate a successful and winning speedway club. Of course there are other clubs in this type of situation and don't make the most of it. But for the vast majority of speedway clubs in the UK, they do not operate in such a favourable environment. If Matt Ford were to walk out on Poole and take over at say Belle Vue, Redcar or Edinburgh would he be able to make them as big a success as Poole? He might make a slight improvement, but as successful? Not a chance. That's why when people say 'Why can't more clubs be like Poole?' they are simply not being realistic. It's why any future model for the sport cannot be modelled on what Poole can do. Frankly, it's way beyond the potential of most clubs for the foreseeable future.

Again, unable to read or understand my posts. Still no facts. The nearest you have got is "around 400 more people" and "crowds cut in half". When I have challenged you to back this up with evidence you haven't done that. You stated that having no GP riders would cut crowds in half. Let me try again in plain English... Have Ipswich's crowds halved since they dropped from EL to PL? Yes or no. Is this question simple enough or should I dumb it down a little? Similarly have Leicester's and Birmingham's crowds doubled now they have the luxury of seeing GP riders? Yes or no. Lets have your answers on these very simple questions and see if they support your sweeping "cut in half" statement. Not sure why you are rambling about Golden Helmet or Midland Cup. Personally, I think they are meaningless and no-one but you has mentioned them. Really not sure why. Also, who said Hans Andersen has to give up Sweden, Poland, etc? Wasn't me. Wasn't anybody. My position is that Britain should not employ GP riders as I feel they have too many higher priority commitents away from Britain and leave the public here short-changed. I think my position is clear enough. Most have grasped it and plenty have agreed. Now, if there's anything that you are still struggling with, please point it out and I'll walk you through it very slowly.

Fine. It's now pretty clear you don't have the attention span to read or understand my posts on this topic. Fair enough. You still haven't given us any facts and haven't been able to provide your own model for the future. It's clear to see neither are forthcoming. Your contribution has been poor on information, but excellent on entertainment value - I'll give you that. For those who have the capacity to grasp the issues, I'll explain further why I think why League Speedway should go without GP riders. Firstly, it's about reducing costs. I don't believe top dollar riders are justifying their fees to league speedway. I also don't think the second tier of riders..Andersen etc. would suddenly start asking ridiculous fees. If they did, then they would probably price themselves out of the market. Or if a big club like Poole was willing to pay over the odds, well that's up to them. My guess is that for Andersen, Nicholls etc. if they didn't have GP riders to try to keep pace with, it would actually mean they would not have to spend so much on tuning to compete. That effect would also trickle down. Riders would not have to invest so much just to try and keep pace with Ward/Woffinden etc. Secondly, without GP riders, it would hugely reduce the need for guest riders and rider replacement which so infuriate the fans. Currently there are a minimum of 13 weekends during our summer season where GP riders' priorities are elsewhere. That's pretty much half of the season. In an ideal world, speedway in Britain would run on one night. But for plenty of reasons that isn't going to work in this country. So, we have to give the clubs who are best placed to run their business on a Friday or Saturday the freedom to know that they will have access to the same pool of 175 riders (based on 25 league clubs) that any club that prefers to run on a Monday or Wednesday does. That would help their own marketing and would also help the credibility of the league. Finally, I think if some riders were given the choice of British League or GP there are several who would plump for the league. Chris Harris and Kenneth Bjerre are two international standard riders whose World Championship ambitions have realistically passed them by. They would think seriously about whether they would continue with the GP given the choice. A new league structure that combined PL and EL riders across North and South Divisions would make for more compact and solid teams and make for more competitive league speedway. As it stands, EL teams are this weird mix of GP superstar, sprinkling of PL standard riders and NL novices and it makes for a pretty poor spectacle. The major issue with my suggestion is the EL clubs who have invested heavily in GP riders and their assets can no longer ride for them. I can empathise with them having a complaint about that and I'm sure a vocal minority would be against the idea. Let's face it, even millionaires are the most voiciferous to complain about tax rises. But this is about the health of the sport as a whole. I'd suggest to sweeten the pill, clubs in this position are given a favourable allocation of big meetings in the early years to compensate for any losses on their investment.

You are choosing really poor examples to support your really poor argument. It makes me wonder if you are being deeply ironic when questioning other people's common sense. Of course, there were bigger crowds who came out to see Sayfutdinov (go on, have a go at the surname..you can do it!). He was brand new to Britain, a top rider and a genuine novelty when he first arrived. Coventry were trying to make a big statement after they almost got kicked out of the league that year. Thing is though, he missed loads of matches, cost Coventry a fortune and ultimately it didn't work out. That's why Coventry nor any other British club has brought him back since. Novelty wears thin pretty quickly and that is why even when a British world champion turns up at your track, there is no huge surge in crowds. Our league needs to be quality, but competitive and cost effective. GP riders do not bring in the dough they are costing on a week-by-week basis. As I've outlined above in my proposed model there is a place for them in Britain in test matches or each club's individual meetings. When they are a genuine novelty they can be a genuine attraction again. It's why the Ben Fund meet is always a success. Yes, people are happy its for a good cause. But mainly if its a rare chance to see Nicki Pedersen on a British track, they will make the effort. But when its just at standard league racing, their presence isn't making a vast difference. There is no novelty value. There are lessons from the past and the present. The GPs and Play-Offs are not everyone's cup of tea. Ditto nominated races. I think they have been good for the sport. Pairs and fours have also long been a success at PL level and I don't see the point in scrapping them when their finals have been a proven crowd puller for the majority of fans. My other ideas would breathe fresh life into individual meetings. I believe a Blue Riband or 16 lapper with a sprinkling of GP stars would be a hit. Similarly a five test GB v Australia series. As for your other point, mainly it looks like gibberish. You might have to have another go at that. There seems to be something about crowds being cut in half though. I don't know if that is necessarily the case when you take GP riders out of the equation or even if you add them in. Have Ipswich's crowds halved? Conversely have Birmingham and Leicester's doubled since they stepped up? Being the man with all the facts, I'm sure you will have the exact figures to hand. I look forward to reading your blueprint for the future of British Speedway's leagues.

The examples you have chosen are completely unrepresentive of a typical speedway club in the UK. Poole are far and away the best supported and most successful club of the modern era. Last year they lost Chris Holder and drafted in Greg Hancock - what other club in Britain can do that? The others you mention have traditionally struggled. To base a model on the future of British Speedway on any of these clubs would be rather stupid. It has to be based on the vast bulk of clubs that operate somewehere in the middle. Speedway clubs who do a decent job in their area, have a small, but loyal following and are hovvering around breaking even each year, perhaps making a profit or a small loss. It doesn't seem like you have a coherent plan. I'll have a go... BASIC MODEL No GP riders, no paying air fares Combine EL and PL and split North and South North and South League winners and runners-up into final four play-offs and final KO Cup competition with open draw from all North and South clubs Reintroduction of Test Series to be spread around tracks (including GP riders). I'd favour a five test GB v AUS Riders Championship to feature semis and final (three meetings) Pairs and Fours to be retained Option for each club to stage major individual meetings featuring GP riders, eg. Blue Riband, 16 lapper BENEFITS Saved costs on GP riders Less travel for riders and supporters Reviving traditional rivalries, Ips v KL, BV v Sheff, Rye v Lakeside, perhaps even starting some new ones, Poole v Somerset Chance to see GP riders at Tests/Big Individual meetings where it would actually be a treat rather than same old Still retain high quality riders like Andersen, Karlsson, B Pedersen, Watt, Schlein, Nicholls Riders Championship not decimated by GP drop-outs

I wouldn't be as harsh on Tai as this. I can understand the issues he has. He and the other top riders are just trying to make a decent living in the very short careers they have, which - in a sport like this - could end at any time. Make no mistake, the likes of Ivan Mauger, Peter Collins, Ole Olsen, Hans Nielsen and the rest from the past would have taken a very similar standpoint had they been in the same situation. Today's top riders work hard. Probably harder than riders from any other era when three leagues, GPs and SWC are taken into account. I don't begrudge them trying to earn a decent crust. It's just that they have become unaffordable for Britain. So an amicable parting of the ways is what is needed. At one time, Britain was the epi-centre of World Speedway. To be a full-time, professional, never mind the best in the world, you had to ride in Britain. Simple as that. That's not the case anymore. We can either accept that and work to deliver the best possible league we can given our limited resources. Or we can delude ourselves and continually pump money into top riders and their team of tuners/mechanics at the expense of every other aspect of the speedway meeting experience. "Fact of the matter" - still no facts "Pure common sense" - wishy washy opinion without any facts to back it u. Again. People care about competitive speedway. The ££££ demanded by Gollob and Sayfutdinov (I'll have a go at the surname you were struggling with) is not justfied by the people through the turnstiles. Go on, have one more go at giving us the facts of the matter. So far you've been completely devoid of facts.

Thank god someone is bringing some real clarity to this debate. "Maybe 400" is the exact science we need to cut through the fog of opinions. Well done. However, there may be other factors in the very exact and unquestionable numbers you have so brilliantly brought to the table. Perhaps Poole being the the best supported club and also the closest of Swindon's Elite League rivals might also have a slight influence on the crowd. Certainly when I followed Exeter their best crowds were always Poole (even when they were no great shakes) and when I followed Edinburgh their best crowds were comfortably Glasgow. See a pattern at all? How many more pile through the turnstiles for Tai Woffinden? Probably 500? Roughly 700? I wonder if anyone else can match Orion's precise insight into how crowds swell so much when top riders come to town. Maybe Coventry might be persuaded to bring Emil Sayfutdinov back? Maybe Ipswich will throw caution to the wind, go Elite League again and bring back Jarek Hampel and Tomasz Gollob?

Great. So glad to hear I was being so silly and things are so great. Brilliant news! Got my pen and paper ready here, can you just give me the numbers then of those bigger crowds that I was so oblivious to?

Yes, most would like that. But we have to realistic with what the sport can afford. I'd like to see Scarlett Johannson on Coronation Street every week. But I don't think that will ever happen.