fatface

1989 was a poor World Final line-up. Possibly because it fell in between eras. But you would be hard pressed to make a case for half of that field being GP standard. Troy Butler, Olli Tyrvainen, Tony Olsson, Gerd Riss, Roman Matousek, Karl Maier, Zoltan Adorjan - all second strings really.

Gave the 10 year old me an autograph in the Belle Vue pits whilst his tongue was half way down a female fans throat. Talented? Ill say :-)

Ive always thought Shawn the better of the Morans and Im always surprised how many people see it the opposite way round. Shawns achievements clearly trump Kelly internationally and domestically. I know this debate is about pure talent alone and Kelly might have achieved more with more focus, but Shawn was no monk either and he didnt do half bad.

Great. Have you thought about volunteering to operate this huge administrative task involving thousands of people, costing thousands to loss-making businesses? I'm sure each and every promoter will be keen to hear from you.

You don't have to tell me any of that. You'd be hard pressed to find a bigger fan than me. He was my hero as a kid. I've still got the Dave Ellis (remember him?) original painting of him. What a beaut that is too! :-) But you only have to scroll through any threads on here to see how nutty some folk can be. His managerial and promotional shortcomings are probably still too fresh in the memory for him and others. Let's hope it's sooner rather than later before his enormous contribution to Belle Vue as a rider AND as the trailblazer for the NSS are properly recognised. I'd like to think a stand named after him one day at the NSS would be an apt tribute.

No-one would think he is a nutter. But sadly, there are plenty of nutters out there. It's hugely naive to believe he wouldn't get some stick. I think its entirely understandable for him to let some water pass under the bridge for a while.

I understand your annoyance, but that's still quite some leap to suggest any posters on here are laughing at the disabled. I'd rethink that one. This is a topic that really should have never seen the light of day. It should not have been given the media attention in the first place. Given PC's health, some journalistic discretion should have been applied. BUT, as the can of worms was opened, it is then only right that the other point of view is heard and any untruths do not go unclarified. Sadly, I don't think this one will be settled. But I think rather than pointing fingers, it is better to just accept that there are health-related circumstances here that make this very difficult to resolve. No matter what, nothing can change the fact that PC is a Belle Vue icon and one of the greatest riders I and many others in this forum have had the privilege to see race a speedway bike.

There has to be some sort of criteria. I dunno 100 appearances for the Aces might be a decent benchmark? There's obvious value in PC being at all Belle Vue meetings. He is a living legend and idolised by anyone with red, black and white blood in their veins. Fans there would love to see him and - in his advancing years - I'm sure he'd get a lot out of mixing with the fans too. Sadly, it seems like he is cutting off his nose to spite his face over a rather petty cause.

Sad it has come to this. There are no winners. Ultimately the beef is about the Bernie Colliers, Barry Ayres's and Mark Crangs of the world getting a lifetime free pass to the NSS. I understand Belle Vue's stance entirely.

Glad to see Richard Hellsen getting some love here. Never a top-liner, but a very tough 100% effort professional at BL and NL level. For me, a barometer of a value-for-money rider was the amount of effort they made as a visitor to the County Ground. He was one of those who always gave it a real go. Pierre Brannefors looked s real prospect in 1983, bit didn't kick on. Per Jonsson on the other hand blossomed into one of the classiest riders I've ever seen.

I went to that World Team Cup at Coventry with high hopes. England were absolute garbage though. And when I got back home my girlfriend dumped me! Ah...happy days :-)

He probably gets unfairly pigeon-holed with Jerzy Szczakiel and Egon Muller in terms of one-off World Champs and that's probably a bit unfair. Both those guys would never ever have won the title outside their own countries in unique circumstances. Havelock won in unfamiliar territory against a tough field including Ermolenko, Jonsson, Rickardsson etc. by putting together a series of great starts and delivering on the big night. Fair play. I would rate him below all the other British Champions and he's never in the debate when it comes to all-time greats, but in 1992 at least, he was right up there at the very top level.

Apologies. I fecked that one up somewhat. Didn't know how to paste a table. I've had another crack below: WF WTC WP BLRC BF WCQ WFA CAPS ______________________________________________________________________ CARTER S x 2 G x 1 G x 2 G x 2 S x 4 3 ? S x 2 S x 1 B x 1 ______________________________________________________________________ LOUIS B x1 G x 3 G x 1 G x 1 G x 1 S x 1 4 ? B x 2 ______________________________________________________________________ MORTON G x 1 G x 1 G x 1 G x 1 G x 1 7 128 S x 3 S x 2 S x 1 S x 1 B x 1 B x 1 B x 1 B x 1 ______________________________________________________________________ SIMMO S x 1 G x 4 G x 3 G x 1 3 80 S x 1 S x 1 B x 3 ______________________________________________________________________ WILSON G x 4 G x 1 S x 1 G x 1 S x 2 4 ? S x 1 S x 1 B x 1 B x 1 G - Gold S - Silver B - Bronze WF – World Finals WTC – World Team Cup WP – World Pairs BLRC – British League Riders Championship BF – British Finals WCQ – Major World Championship Qualifying Rounds, eg. Intercontinental, European, Overseas, British-Nordic, Commonwealth WFA – World Final appearances CAPS – International caps To me, this shows Simmo as the top man in terms of achievements in the big three of World Individual, Pairs and Team. But Morton is the only one to win gold in all the major competitions outside of the World Individual. TBH, I'm struggling to think of another non-World Champion who could boast this. Wilson has an outstanding World Cup record. Louis is the only one to have been on the podium in every major event and Carter has the best BLRC and British Final record. All makes very interesting reading. Morton had the longest top level career of the lot. But if you pinned me in the corner and asked me who was the best of this lot at their very best, I'd probably go for Kenny Carter.

WF WTC WP BLRC BF WCQ WFA CAPS Carter S x 2 G x1 S x 2 G x 2 G x 2 S x 1 B x 1 S x 4 3 Louis B x 1 G x 3 G x 1 G x 1 G x 1 B x 1 S x 1 4 Morton G x 1 S x 3 B x 1 G x 1 G x 1 S x 2 B x 1 G x 1 S x 1 B x 1 G x 1 S x 1 B x 1 7 128 Simmons S x 1 G x 4 S x 1 G x 3 S x 1 G x 1 B x 3 3 80 Wilson G x 4 S x 1 B x 1 G x 1 S x 1 S x 1 B x 1 G x 1 S x 2 4 WF – World Finals WTC – World Team Cup WP – World Pairs BLRC – British League Riders Championship BF – British Finals WCQ – Major World Championship Qualifying Rounds, eg. Intercontinental, European, Overseas, British-Nordic, Commonwealth WFA – World Final appearances CAPS – International caps

none of them were good enough to win a World Title, as it proved! :-)

On the other hand....he won a BLRC unlike Simmo or Wilson (when it really meant something), he made more appearances for England than all the rest. He top scored for England in successive World Cup finals, unlike all the rest. Like Carter and Wilson, he never placed in a World Final, but he did reach more World Finals than all the rest. And if placing in a World Final is the barometer, would you rank Gordon Kennett and Les Collins (same era) above Morton, Wilson and Carter? He also won a major World Championship qualifying round in addition to the British Final unlike all the rest...

Completely and utterly biased...but, aren't we all? Morton is the most capped of all these and won everything there is to win individual and as a team internationally and domestically bar the World Title. Yep, he gets overshadowed by PC having raced in the same era. But he beats all these guys on longevity and his CV is at least equal to Simmo and better than the rest.

We're going to build a fence. A great big inflatable fence. And we're going to get Australians to pay for it. Bigly. From now on it's Team GB first, Team GB first.

Couldn't agree more. Essentially the above posters are arguing about fashion. Dreadlocks? Tattoos? Who cares? I dare say in their era there were a few stuffy old boys offended by Split Waterman's brylcreemed barnet or Chris Pusey's porkchop sideburns. The irony is that those who are so quick to condemn any modern rider for anything remotely non-conventional are the first to bemoan the "lack of characters these days...."

Wayne Brown and Mark Thorpe both had their moments too.

Marmite? I can take it or leave it.

First time back to British GP in three years and I can't imagine going through another similar Cardiff-free streak again. Absolutely loved it. Found cheap city centre accommodation (won't reveal my sources!), snagged some pit passes, great tickets, fantastic atmosphere inside and outside the stadium and some cracking racing (I'd have it in the top three all-time at Cardiff). 2018? Count me in!

Ok, I'll have my crack at it. 1 Igor Plechanov 2 Jerzy Szcakiel 3 Rune Holta 4 Martin Vaculik 5 Boris Samorodov Also pondered Mike Bast (who doesn't these days?), Chris Watson (Aus), Robert Barth (Ger)

I did not know that. Scratch him off then. Alan Christian? Dubb Ferrell? Gene Woods? Struggling after that... ;-)

Here's some to get the ball rolling.... Igor Plechanov Rune Holta Pawel Waloszek Got a strange inkling Gustix might have someone he'd like to nominate... :-)