fatface

I think you should consider yourself very lucky anyone at all is still interacting with you. I'm sure you are a lovely guy in the real world, but - I say this as a fellow Belle Vue fan - you have conducted yourself like a complete twerp on this thread. Can't believe this thread is still going, then again, looking upwards, I can. If there is one area of agreement, it is that you cannot compare eras. Different riders, different tracks, different times. But what we can say unequivocally is that Tai Woffinden is achieving more in his era than any other Brit has managed in theirs. There have been some red herrings dropped in over it being a weak era or the silly notion that there are team orders or even attacks on Tai personally - all smack of desperation in this argument. As much as I am biased towards the 80s, from today's era, I see some real talent racing to their optimum ability and the best facing the best with great regularity. I think it's safe to say he's past his best now, but he's a three-time World Champion and yet Nicki Pedersen has been visibly busting a gut just to keep up at times. I've said it above, but I'll repeat it nonetheless, Tai Woffinden truly has the lot - he is a complete rider. If he were a Top Trumps Card, he'd be scoring high on everything - starting ability, overtaking ability, professionalism/dedication, ability under pressure. And if you are not enjoying his success now, well, I think you are going to have to suck it up for a while yet. Unlike his British predecessors Loram, Havelock, Lee, Collins, he has real longevity at the very top level. I'd be shocked if he didn't won one or a few more World Championships.

Went to that one. It was a strangely chaotic affair. The weather was torrential at one point..there were hailstones like golf balls! We came away thinking Per Jonsson was the real class act, but he had just been caught out by a freak storm.

...and this year went down to the 229th race of 230 before Woffinden clinched it. That’s a pretty fine room for error.

My recollections over Sanders in 84 and Moran in 85 were that it was more about the final venue itself, than them being considered the out and out best riders in the world. Sanders had been the outstanding individual at the 83 World Pairs in Gothenburg and had real pedigree at that particular track - 3rd in the 1980 final. Moran had been the top rider at the World Pairs semi and the Overseas Final at Bradford in 85, whilst neither of the Danes had yet competed there - remember this was before the Dukes moved over from Halifax in 86. Of course all of the above was groundless come the finals, when the Danes rendered any perceived track advantage as irrelevant.

So true! As a big Chris Morton fan, I remember the 1984 BLRC well. He, Nielsen and Gundersen were set up for the three rider run off. Before the race, my folks said; “right, we just need to pray for Gundersen to touch the tapes and Nielsen to pack up”. And so it came to pass...and there was great joy from the Belle Vuenians all across the Hyde Road lands :-)

No, it would have been 2000-2001 time. Armadale, she didn’t ride for long, but won a second half race. Can’t ruddy remember her name though!

Speedway Cup Final day?! I hadn’t realised! Wow! I’ll get the bunting out for that! The BBC are really missing one of the country’s sporting Crown Jewels today then! I’ll just hop over to the thread and read all about this hot, hot topic!...... Oh...actually it was just Steve Shovlar posting loads and a handful of other enthusiasts on this speedway forum...not including you I noticed either? Too busy obsessing about minorities and the BBC instead. Like Grachan, I understand why this story is newsworthy. It’s unusual. There is a clue in the word “news”...take away the “s” and you might have it. Something new is always more interesting and NEWsworthy than the bog standard. Why do you think Tai Woffinden got good coverage on the BBC? It was newsworthy that a Brit had won his third title. If a Brit won it every year, it wouldn’t be newsworthy. At the other end of the scale and to take it back an era or two, why do you think someone like GB ski jumper Eddie Edwards or the Jamaican bobsleigh team got so much coverage? I once wrote a piece for the Scottish National newspapers on a female rider trying to make it for Edinburgh. Forget her name now. Got good coverage though. Do I have to explain why?

Agreed. It was a point made very eloquently several months ago in the Speedway Star by GP race director Phil Morris. One of the real positives speedway has over other motorsports is that there is general parity over the equipment used...and so rider skill is paramount. I've no doubt Tai Woffinden has the very best gear, so too will all the rest of the top riders. As they have done throughout speedway history. It isn't the case that Woffinden has a Ferrari, whilst the rest have Saubers (or whatever the current crappy F1 team is?!). Even if it were the case, he has earned the right to have the best equipment by being the best rider. Does anyone think Jawa, GM or the top tuners were falling over themselves to help him ahead of his first title in 2013 when he was a rank outsider going in? No chance. He's dedicated, he backed himself and he's reaping the rewards. One of the aspects of him that I admire most is that he has the ability to really be as one with the machine. In contrast to say, a Nicki Pedersen, who really has to fight with the bike, at his best Tai Woffinden really flows with his machine as if they are one and the same.

You’ve accused people of avoiding points, then you avoid points. You struggle to produce any facts to back up your point, then when you do, they are shown to be misleading and not the full picture. Now you are debating what you described as “nowhere near debatable”. At least someone like Steve Shovlar has the sense to sidle off when he’s beaten. You are like the black knight in Monty Python!

Dear oh dear.. Give a man enough rope and... Yes, it’s probably best you don’t watch SPOTY this year. You don’t want the global success of those ethnics being rammed down your throat. Nor that woman Balding skilfully presenting it either. Gay as well. How dare they?! Yes, you don’t want any of them rubbing your nose in it do you? ps. Women’s football and men’s football being treated equally? Are you for real?! Or have I been had by a Russian bot?

As per a previous example, Mike Lee had all those rounds, bar the Overseas Final (replaced Commonwealth in 1981) when winning the title in 1980. They all took place in the UK. You mention Olsen and Mauger, but let's look at the full picture. He also had to face the likes of Bobby Garrad (British Semi) Mike Lanham (British Final), Mel Taylor (Commonwealth) and Bent Rasmussen (Intercontinental). He also didn't beat his major rival for the title that year - Dave Jessup - once in the entirety of winning that World Championship. In contrast Woffinden has had to face all of his main rivals in 10 meetings across the season in 7 countries and has beaten them on multiple occasions to win the title. Still think it was tougher back in the day? Think again.

So, you actually haven't got the figures for speedway's attendances after all? And you have also rowed back significantly on your estimation being less than half what you originally plucked out of the air. Ok, but it doesn't really do much for the credibility of your argument does it? You accuse me of avoiding points, yet you ignore the healthy TV figures I pulled out for women's cricket and fix your eyes purely on league attendance. Bit rich isn't it? I must stress I am not great champion of women's cricket, and I accept that it is certainly not definitive which is the bigger sport. But let's at least try and be objective over each sport's significance. Though we are basing it on your ever-changing assumptions, let's agree that speedway does attract more regular paying fans in the UK. Let's also agree that there are more professional speedway riders than professional female cricketers in the UK. Again though, we are talking very modest numbers. In terms of overall participants, then my strong suspicion is that there are way more women's cricket players than speedway riders in the UK (I'll even chuck grass-trackers in the mix as grassroots amateurs). A quick search on the ECB site reveals eight women's teams just within 20 miles of my remote home in Devon. Let's also revisit those healthy TV figures of 1.1m for the Women's World Cup in the UK and 180m worldwide. Do you have anything comparative for speedway? Additionally, trivial it might seem, but social media does give us as good as guide as any over the interest levels in individuals or a sport. Charlotte Edwards, the former England women's cricket captain has a greater social media following than Tai Woffinden. "Easily bigger and nowhere near debatable" Hmmm...I'd rethink that one.. So, let's not kid ourselves that speedway is more significant that it actually is among a lot of other minority sports. And it seems the BBC once again gave Speedway a good airing on 5 Live today, so hopefully this eases the creeping paranoia over the sport's relationship with the BBC. Let's also not sheepishly follow this silly narrative peddled by commercial, right wing media over the BBC and it's so-called political correctness. Yes, the BBC does appear more ethnic, more female, more multi-cultural than other parts of the media. It has a whole society to reflect and represent, not a core market of middle England to satisfy. I'll tell you a story.... Now, I have dabbled in journalism, firstly in news and latterly in sport. Here's a couple of clippings, just so you know I am not just an internet nutjob.. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2895606/Exeter-25-26-Gloucester-Gareth-Steenson-rare-day-boot-Chiefs-centenary-party-ends-thrilling-defeat.html https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/mar/16/exeter-northampton-lv-cup-final-match-report It was early 2000s and I was working for a news agency in Scotland as a junior reporter and was sent out on behalf of the Daily Mail to vox-pox and photograph the public on why they wouldn't be voting Labour in the next election. This being in Scotland, finding people to say why they they were voting Conservative would have been- at best - a very long day and at worst, a suicide mission! So, anyway that was the angle. It's the Mail, like it or not, you know where their flag is camped. But it was the next part of the brief that I have never, ever forgotten. I was told "don't interview anyone foreign or with dark skin because our readers can't relate to them." I quickly realised this line of work in "news" was not for me. That's the reality of what happens in some non-BBC media circles. So, the next time you accuse the BBC of "political correctness", I ask you to remember this little story. ps. The 5th reference in relation to Lewis Hamilton was that he is set to win his 5th World Championship, not that he is placed 5th. Ditto Jonathan Rea - 4th World Championship title this year.

Nope. I am not missing any points and I certainly never "avoid" any points or cherry-pick my way through a discussion. I am happy to debate on any point raised, as you will see below. I simply disagree with you. As you will see from my postings previous, I acknowledged that women's cricket is still a sport in its formative stages. Is it bigger or smaller than speedway? Well it's certainly debatable. I am unsure where your figures on 20,000 fans attending league speedway over a two week period come from - are you able to share that source of information? Women's league cricket is definitely in formative stages and league crowds are small and I tend to agree on that front. I suspect they are lower than speedway's, which we can confirm when you produce those speedway league attendance figures. But its World Cup Final sold out Lord's and was watched by 1.1m TV viewers on Sky Sports and 180m TV viewers worldwide. So, there's definitely a lot of wider interest in the sport. So whilst it might irk you that it gets a mention on 5 live, there is clearly an audience who are interested. I hope the sofa appearance on BBC Breakfast of Tai Woffinden eased your rising annoyance over the BBC ignoring the sport. Again, the BBC showed their unique quality of offering fair recognition when it's due. Kind of renders the political correctness point as groundless doesn't it? But let's also not kid ourselves. There would have been other people with other sporting tastes watching that saying "Who cares? Why are they bothering with that Mickey Mouse sport?" Such is the rock and hard place that the BBC often finds itself positioned in between. You wonder why you are not alone in disagreeing with me? Well, this is a speedway forum, used by speedway fans, who are biased towards...you guessed it...speedway. Naturally, a more neutral perspective is bound to get a kicking by some of the more blinkered among this happy band. Finally, yes I agree Woffinden is the best British speedway rider of all time. Does that make him a greater sportsman than an Andy Murray for example? Of course not. Murray reached the top in a truly global sport in - arguably - its most competitive era. Come SPOTY, I'm sure Tai's achievement will get a rightful nod, but even in pure motorsport terms, the significance of the achievement will likely come behind that of Lewis Hamilton (5th WC) and Jonathan Rea (4th WC) - and given the modest size of our sport, that's fair enough.

I think you are right to see parallels with Woffinden and Hamilton. Both made it to the top the hard way, both have been World Champion more than any other Brit in their sport and - for whatever reason - both their successes stick in the craw of some of the more "traditional" supporters in their sports.

Larry Ross has won more NZ titles than Moore, Briggs and Mauger combined! Therefore....

It’s worth slipping off the rose tinted specs and looking back in the cold light of day at some of the ways WCs were won in the good old days...here’s another example.. 1980 - Mike Lee British Semi Final, Sheffield, GB, 9pts, 5th (8 to qualify) British Final, Coventry, GB, 14pts, 2nd (10 to qualify) Commonwealth Final, Wimbledon, GB, 9pts, 7th (9 to qualify) Intercontinental Final, White City, GB, 9pts, 6th (10 to qualify) World Final, Gothenburg, SWE, 14pts, 1st The point is not to say Mike Lee was an unworthy champion, he was a top notch rider and a good champion. But if anyone suggests the above route to the title is tougher than Tai Woffinden’s season long battle against the world’s best across 10 meetings in 7 countries coming down to the 229th race of 230, then its simply delusional. If a Mike Lee or PC or even a Simmo or John Louis had ever performed like Woffinden did last night - in particular in the face of adversity in his main opponent’s backyard - people would still be drooling about it now.

People are right when they say it is impossible to compare eras. The sport is wholly different to what it was in the 50s or even in the 80s. Racers in each era can only ever be the best of their era - they can only beat who is in front of them, on the tracks of that day, using the machines of those times. Having said that, I am massively impressed by Tai Woffinden. He truly is the complete speedway rider. He has the lot. He can win from the front, he is equally brilliant from the back. He is cool under pressure and highly professional. In my time watching the sport, I would rank him up with Tony Rickardsson and Bruce Penhall as complete riders. I've no doubt Tai Woffinden will wrap up his third World Title this weekend. Beyond that, the speedway world is his oyster.

So, he hasn't been able to substantiate the outlandish claims of how significant speedway is in comparison to other sports. So, if you are also going to hop on that bandwagon, then at least try and bring something compelling to the table of a) why speedway is so significant b) the big BBC conspiracy against speedway. Otherwise, again, its just baseless paranoia. Minority sports have been recognised when the achievement has been so great that it deserves recognition. Jonathan Rea, Phil Taylor, Kevin Sinfield are three that spring to mind. The challenge for speedway is not only is it a niche sport among the wider sporting world, it's small fry in even just in a motorsport context. Think of it this way...imagine every sport is a mountain and the base is made up of those with a casual interest, then supporters up to recreational participants, local level competitors, up to national level up to continental level up to world level and the best in the world at the top. Guys like Lewis Hamilton, Mo Farah, Andy Murray and Anthony Joshua are - or have been - up at Everest levels. Tai Woffinden is atop Snowdon. As for the BBC bias, well I reckon the most likely contenders this year will be Geraint Thomas, Anthony Joshua, Lewis Hamilton and Dina Asher-Smith, all apart from Asher-Smith are predominantly featured on rival broadcaster's channels. See if I am wrong in December and you can justify your paranoia. I hardly ever, in fact never agree with the SPOTY top three. We're all biased. But my preference would be for it to go back to an experts panel to avoid some of the block voting that can skew the real picture. Some sports can rally their followers much easier than others. That's why guys like Tony McCoy have won it - rightly or wrongly. It's probably true that if Tai Woffinden was shortlisted he probably would do quite well as I suspect speedway supporters would rally round. But that wouldn't make it a fair result. No matter what, horse racing fans will always vote for a jockey, petrol heads will always vote for an F1 driver and Scots will always vote for anyone Scottish. Lesbian and a muslim immigrant too? How witty! I had forgotten all about those 70s sitcoms. Comedy gold! I really must pick up a copy of the Mail and Sun tomorrow to take me back to those amusing times of ridiculing minorities and the notion of inclusivity. Happy days. Classy.

Fair do's I'll give you that. Zara Phillips' winning was a joke. But a big portion of the blame falls on the public who go doe-eyed at the sight of a royal and duly voted based on her celebrity status. All we need to do is get Megan Markle on a Speedway Bike now... The challenge for the BBC with SPOTY...and indeed everything else it does...is that it has to be all things to all people. Unlike other prominent media outlets which have a clear agenda beyond pure objectivity. The BBC has to take the wider view and although it isn't perfect, it does a pretty damn good job for what is an impossible task of trying to please all of the people all of the time.

I am a bit puzzled why you bundled up women’s sport as examples of sports that speedway is ‘huge’ in comparison to. You must have your reasons. Women’s cricket is still in relatively formative stages, but netball and swimming are definitely comparative or bigger. We can all throw out sweeping statements based on nothing but opinion. But without any facts to back it up, it’s nothing but noise. Then again, there’s a lot of it about these days.. Let’s take netball. How is speedway huge in comparison? Number of participants? League spectators? TV ratings? Social media followers? Sponsorship revenue? What are you basing it on? Even the most rudimentary bit of internet research demonstrates netball compares favourably to speedway. Just because we like speedway doesn’t make it relevant to the British public. That might be unpalatable, but it’s a fact.

Not in any way. Those figures don’t include every single person who has been on a boat in a year. There’s no pedalo users or ferry passengers. It does include every person who has taken part in sailing in a single year and er, that’s it.

Well, it is relevant. The greater the popularity of a sport, the greater the number of participants then the greater the achievement in being the best. I'm no sailing fan, but there are around 900,000 sailors in England, according to Sport England's data. How many speedway riders are there? I think Tai Woffinden is an exceptional talent, probably Britain's best ever rider. But in wider sporting terms, beyond speedway, it has very little significance.

Probably some women I imagine....what do they know? Ruddy BBC...grrrrr. Where's my Sun newspaper? Ah, that's better...women who know their place...right there on page 3. Anyway, back in the real world.... A speedway rider would have to do something utterly exceptional and totally out of the ordinary to ever have a hope of a nod for BBC SPOTY. In my totally biased opinion, it is a great sport, but the reality it that is is a minority sport and of utter irrelevance to non speedway supporters. Whether you are interested in them or not, it will always be important who wins Wimbledon, who wins the Olympic 100m title, who wins the Formula One World Title, who is the World Heavyweight Champion, etc. and I get that. The best tennis player, the fastest runner in the world, the best driver in the world and the toughest fighter in the world - those have real global status. You can't even say the Speedway World Champion is the best motorcyclist in the world, the consensus would be that's the MotoGP Champion. Get out of your speedway supporters shoes for a minute and think about it. Do we really expect a rider who is the best at sliding round a dirt track for a minute to be regarded as one of the UK's best sportsmen in the public's eyes? There have been UK sportsmen and women who have internationally dominated in sports like squash - would you really expect them to be recognised too? That's not to say Tai Woffinden couldn't get nominated one day, but it's a long way off yet. I think Carl Fogarty once got in the top three when he was winning World Superbike Titles and he made the British Superbike GP a pilgrimage for bikers across the UK - Phil Taylor also was recognised when his World Title winning streak in darts reached freakish proportions. So, just a decade more Tai...and you might just have a shot

Legend is an overused and misused word. I’ll tell you who is a legend - King Arthur. He’s a total ledge. Is Simmo an all-time great of the sport? Hmm, probably not. But in purely England or Poole terms, absolutely.

Amen to that. Naturally, we will all have an element of bias to great races involving our particular favourites. Some more biased than others... There's a cracker of Chris Morton going 4th to 1st in a World Team Cup qualifier at King's Lynn that I never tire of watching. I love all those you have mentioned, although Loram v Gollob bros was a new one on me. Thank you. Anyway, we're probably moving into Years Gone By chat now...I must be getting on