fatface

I was surprised to read she had a speedway link. I worked with Vikki for several years in athletics circles and she never mentioned it. Then again, did i mention i was a speedway fan? Probably not...it's usually a conversation killer. Very sorry to hear of her passing. She was an incredibly strong woman. She had to be in a blokes world, working for the blokiest of newspapers. She fought her corner like a tiger and I felt the sharp end of her tongue more than once! But she never bore a grudge and could also be incredibly warm-hearted and humorous too. She was also a bloody good journalist. RIP

...and I was only 8 at the time too

I remember this young yank being half a lap behind at some tinpot pairs meeting I went to at Swindon in 1989. I'd love to see the scorecard from that now. Forget his name...Glen Hancock...something like that. Wonder whatever happened to him...

Erm, let me get this right...you are digging out quotes from 16 years ago to revive a long-gone discussion? I've heard of quiet Sundays, but this is something else!

There are some really excellent constructive points on this thread from several posters. Let's not let it veer off into "back in the good old days" chat. I love to reminisce as much as the next man, but those days have gone. In the early 80s I absolutely lived for the sport attending Hyde Road every week. So, I was chuffed to see someone had uploaded Aces v Cradley and Aces v Halifax from 1982 on YouTube. Morton, PC, Penhall, Carter, Ross, Gundersen...on those wide open spaces...what could be better than that? The thing is though, looking at it again, the racing wasn't as brilliant as I remembered it to be. Even if you teleported speedway from the 60s, 70s, 80s to the modern era, it would still be struggling, arguably even more so. Admittedly, what was served up then bore a more favourable comparison to the competition in the wider entertainment industry. But the big problem today is not that it isn't what it used to be, it's that it hasn't evolved enough!

Well done for supporting your son. Not all sporting parents are as supportive, so you deserve credit for letting him have a shot at it. But my answer would be for riders to get a trade then that fits with your sporting ambitions. Paint, decorate, plaster, labour...if you truly want to make it, you will do it. The same goes for any sport. Speedway does not owe anyone a living.

Amen to TMC. It must have been 2-3 years ago now I read in the Speedway Star on some CL novice on how he was investing in getting his bikes tuned by Mike Lee. a) learn to ride a bit better before you do that b) learn to tune and engine yourself if you must c) where are you getting the money to pay for a former World Champion to work for you?! - ultimately from the punter, as the sparse terraces they stand on crumble around them As others have said, you can't blame the riders for trying to get the best deal possible each year. It's a dangerous sport and a short career. But if they are not bringing in the revenue to the clubs, then the sport has to cut its cloth - pay them what is affordable and sustainable. You can go back to the Nielsens, Crumps, Adams and such like...all made a decent living out of British Speedway (and fair play to them), but whilst they were taking their fat pay cheques, the crowds were dwindling and there was less and less to invest in the long-term health of the sport. There are so many factors inside and outside speedway that make it a very challenging environment for any speedway promoter. The key audiences of working class to middle class young families that promoters crave have less disposable income than ever before and much greater choice over where they ultimately decide to spend what they do have. Live sport is now available on tap online and virtually the whole of the rest of the leisure sector can offer a more comfortable, safe, modern environment for families. So, it has to compete really hard to get people to fork out. I agree the sport should be not be paying full-time professional wages. I also agree that it needs one big league. But I doubt those improvements would be enough to bring crowds back. I think the sport has to be more radical and offer families a proper full day out on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon. If this means partnering with other sports and activities like sidecars, stockcars, greyhounds, flat track alongside bands and fairground rides, face painters, beer tents and making it a full day of entertainment, then that constitutes much, much better value. Like any other live entertainment, speedway needs footprint and once they are in and the longer you keep them, the greater chance of shifting food, drink, merchandise and the rest to the punters. The chances of 15 heats of league speedway attracting a good crowd on a weekly basis now or in the future are slim to none. And, well, we know where slim went...

Some are equally incapable of separating you (the speedway fan on a speedway forum, talking about speedway) from your relatively random 60 people. As if such an exercise would even enter the head of some random person who hadn't even heard of speedway?! Whether it's a quick straw poll or a wide ranging investigation you are doing, you don't include yourself in your sample - you, who knows the subject, are the least representative of all! Still, I do admire your willingness to tolerate and humour some folk. You've certainly got more patience than I have. There comes a point when you are having a debate with a fool and you wonder who is being the more foolish. Best ignored really.

I must be ruddy mad to take the bait. You have jumped from accusing me of making up sports to now falling back on Sport England as a guide. They are a reasonable pointer on the range of sports in England. But to directly quote the site you have linked to: "The sports councils do not decide what is and what is not a sport. There are many different opinions as to what constitutes a sporting activity and the sports councils do not have their own definition of sport. " The activities I have mentioned all exist, if not in your mind, then you will find google a useful tool. I mention these as extreme examples to try and encourage you to tell us where the line should be drawn for SPOTY. Help us all extract some clarity from the fog in your mind. So, far there is no line forthcoming. Nine pages in, I think it's safe to say we are not going to see one. So, for the third and final time, are you big enough to admit that you were wrong in accusing me of making things up?

Sigh Yes they are. If you can't be bothered to find out (one is even a Paralympic sport and the world governing body is in the UK!) - that's your business. Still, I have my answer, you are not big enough to admit your mistake. Best wishes for a happier 2019 to you.

So, you were not being literal. The problem is when your whole point is around THAT being compared to THIS and THAT is knowingly untrue, well, then the comparison and THIS are invalid and your point is redundant. As for Tibetan and Russian historical figures, I am not going to pretend to be an expert and I'll take a punt that goes for you too and the bloke down the pub too. But I do trust that the qualified professionals employed to make those decisions will be in a better position than you, I or BDTP to make those judgments over who are truly significant national and international figures. I will also add I am not being disrespectful to Nigel Boocock. My post clearly said that to look at it from the point of view from the layperson. I am a speedway fan, I am biased. My personal view, will - like yours - be extremely coloured - and not at all consistent with the big picture view that those in charge of obituaries have to be. Finally, I like the tactic of "not being literal' later on. Nice face-saver.

Ah, welcome back. Happy New Year. Before you sidle back into the debate, will you now be able to answer my question. You made a lengthy post stating that I was making up sports, effectively lying. That's incorrect and has proven to be so. So, I'll try again, are you going to redact that and admit your mistake and apologise? Are you big enough to admit that? Or will you just sit back in the shadows hoping it just goes away? Let's see.

And, the BBC themselves are the ones most voiciferously questioning her lack of recognition at SPOTY. I don't know of any other media organisation that holds itself to account so stringently! I only wish Fleet Street took the same approach.

Is that true? Corrie extras and Rotherham squad men getting Telegraph obituaries? Any evidence of that? Again, Nigel Boocock is a significant figure for people inside speedway. But outside the speedway bubble? Not really. The line has to be drawn somewhere. Look at it from the vantage point of the layperson. He was once a member of a GB winning World Cup team in a minority sport. When he shuffles off this mortal coil, do you expect Paul Thorp to be lauded in the national media too?

Bang on. I too hold Woffinden’s achievements in high esteem. In pure speedway terms - he is the complete rider. Blaming the media for speedway’s regression to national irrelevance is utterly barking up the wrong tree. Speedway needs to take a long hard look in the mirror, rather than pointing the finger elsewhere. And those whose heads are in the sand are part of the problem, not the solution.

So, to those sports that don't exist, those "made-up" ones... England’s Jason Bastable won gold at the World Blind Golf Championships this year. Scotland are current bronze medallists in the World Wheelchair Curling Championships. So, here's a chance for you to redact that and admit your mistake. Those sports are not made up. Fact. Perhaps you might roll out an apology as you are proven to be wrong? Another option is for you is to stamp your feet and throw childish insults. I wonder which one you will choose? You are the one who is saying every British World Champion should be given due credit at SPOTY. You can bet your life that when the BBC tried to this approach in the past, they were inundated with complaints over missing out this and that sport from every pedantic Tom, Dick and Harry across the UK. Instead, SPOTY recognises the most significant rather than the mass appeasement-fest you are championing. I think a line has to be drawn somewhere, so far you have been saying there shouldn't. Are you sticking with that or will you admit another mistake? Or are there more toys left in the pram to have still to chuck out yet? Yes, the crowds for a couple of GPs are impressive, but it's delusional to pretend that makes the whole sport of great national significance. Put it in context. The World Cyclocross Championships gets over 60k paying spectators, there are more people involved in a mass participation event like the London Triathlon than there are with the Cardiff GP, Greyhound racing has a larger annual audience at its race meetings. To call speedway a minority sport in the UK actually doesn't cover it accurately enough. It's one of scores of minority sports and among that chasing pack, it's lagging towards the back of those and going backwards still. Go on, have a go at looking at the bigger picture, try looking at the facts and perhaps park the childish insults, you'll feel much better for it.

I’ll consider myself suitably chastised in that case and brace myself for a similar telling off from the disabled curling community and their multiple classifications. Others however will be fascinated to hear of even more British winners from the nooks and crannies of the sporting world. No doubt they will soon be campaigning for every single last one of them to get a name check at SPOTY 2019.

Appeasement. Yes, who wouldn't watch a good two hours of appeasing television? Where exactly are you drawing the line on this for British world champions? Will cheese rolling get a mention? Wife carrying perhaps? Perhaps the appeasement should also extend to the section for those who passed away? There must have been hundreds of former professional footballers, rugby players, athletes, boxers and cricketers and so on who have passed on in 2018. It seems that is only reserved for those of national and international significance, just like, erm everything else on SPOTY. If SPOTY did serve up the type of exercise you are championing - a box ticking exercise to appease and untwist the knickers of the easily offended from every minority sport, then it truly would become an irrelevance. Wheelchair curling. Tick. Stock Car Racing. Tick. Blind Golf. Tick. The list goes on and on.... Instead, it still watched by 9m people, a five figure live audience, is front page news and it still winds you up weeks later.

Careful with your facts and reasoned argument there. You are leaving yourself wide open to being told that you are wrong and erm, you just are, so there! Let's not forget those British world champions from this year's World Equestrian Games, World Paralympic Table Tennis Championships, World Duathlon Championships, World Para Triathlon Championships, World Paralympic Rowing Championships and so on. If it were a year of Paralympic Swimming and Athletics World Championships, SPOTY could make for a five hour bonanza! There are none so blind that those that won't see. The truth is that outside of it's own bubble, speedway is irrelevant to the wider world.

I know it’s Christmas, but do we really have to play the same records over and over again guys? Here’s to some new tunes for 2019! :-)

There's a rich irony in those who criticise the BBC for box-ticking on the one hand and on the other, they are adamant that every single British world champion should get a mention.

The Tour de France was broadcast on ITV. The winning team’s title sponsor are SKY. The winner was voted by the public. The BBC really need to up their game when it comes to being biased.

I'll always tend to leap to the defence of the BBC. No matter what other daftness blights the country, the BBC, for me, remains the world's best and best value broadcaster, bar none. It's not perfect, but what is? SPOTY is a classic bit of BBC. High profile, by and large well done, slightly uncool and unrealistically trying to please everyone. I felt Ivan Mauger deserved a nod along with other names lost this year. He's widely regarded as the most successful speedway rider ever and I think this merited it. As for Tai Woffinden's ommission, I'd like to have seen it. But I understand the low relevance of speedway on the entire sporting landscape. And "something they always used to do" is never strong basis to simply carrying on doing it. I suspect that with the increasingly diverse sports landscape and the UK's unprecedented success in recent times (in what other eras have we simultaneously had the World Heavyweight Champ, the F1 Champ the Tour de France winner, multiple Olympic gold medallists and Wimbledon men's champion?)...that listing all of the British world champions would be quite a process and wide open to leaving some out.

Anyone else come across this Egon Muller documentary on YouTube? I realise this is a family forum, but from 27:20, it really is the b***ocks

Hmmm. Many - like me - will never find themselves in the position of questioning Peter Collins as one of Britain's best ever. He was a great rider and few of his rivals could do some of the things he could do on a bike. But if we scrutinise in the same way Tai Woffinden's achievements and abilities are being scrutinised....then it's only fair to highlight that the arrival of the four valve Weslake in PC's World Final win was a factor in his - and indeed Malcolm Simmons's success - whilst the majority - including Mauger - were still aboard two valve Jawas. He also won a final in which the reigning champion and his biggest rival Olsen was missing, due to an engine failure and controversial exclusion at the Intercontinental Neither of which is to say PC would not have won that day. But if we are going to be scrupulous, let's be equally so with PC as we are with Tai Woffinden.