fatface

You make a valid point (if I am reading you right?) and you are of course right, not everything is transferrable from the indoor arena to a speedway stadium. Speedway cannot simply replicate basketball in presentation terms, but there is a lot to learn in just the use of music, light and sound effects to add some drama and spectacle to the occasion. There is no dead time at all. It's all high impact music and effective use of spotlights and bright lights to crank up the atmosphere. I think the GPs do this much better than league speedway and I recognise they have much bigger budgets, but there is a lot can be done with a whizz kid at the keyboard and some decent equipment (bought by clubs pooling resources?).

PC? I'm not sure where PC comes into it!? Think you have a default setting there that needs looking at... I'm sure you do remember it to be better. In my own nostalgic mind, I remember the 80s to be better than today, although footage on YouTube is strong evidence that it was in fact no better than today's racing. In a way, you can argue speedway was better then, because - relatively speaking - compared to other entertainment on offer then, speedway stacked up pretty well as live entertainment. Today in 2019, with a very similar product, it doesn't. We have live sport and a much wider leisure options available on-line, at home or in person. Speedway operates in a tough environment competing for the wallet share of a public that has limited disposable income and unlimited options. If anyone thinks teleporting the speedway of yesteryear to today would suddenly bring the crowds flocking back, they are deluded.

...and we are back where we started. Doing anything well is not easy. The plodding on-same as last year-don't change too much-too much hard work attitude is why league speedway finds itself where it is. Scratching its head and scratching its bum.

I also know from insiders and people who work within the sport that the sport is a "cesspit" in its governance. So, very little different from speedway there. Despite that, basketball put on a good show for the fans. I take your point that they have an advantage of indoors, but it is still a world away from speedway in terms of like for like presentation at league meetings.

I went to a British Basketball League match today.... Plymouth Raiders v London Lions. It's not my favourite sport, but it was a good afternoon's entertainment. What's really striking about it compared to speedway is that not a single minute is wasted. Even when it is time-outs or the end of quarters, there are dancers, the mascot is up to something, kids competitions, lights, music..it is a full show. In short, it's light years ahead of speedway. And surprise, surprise, it is packed with families and the sort of demographic everyone on this forum would love to see at the speedway. I've said it before and I'll say it again...and again and again. Speedway's problem is not that it isn't what it used to be. IT'S THAT IT HASN'T CHANGED ENOUGH!

...and then my dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle....if we were lucky!

Not true. I was playing Devil’s Advcocate and said you could make a case. Which you can. But if you’d pinned me down as to where I think Siggy was when his career suddenly ended, I’d have had him up there with Nielsen as arguably the best rider in the world, with Gundersen, Carter, Lee (problems aside) a gnat’s hair behind. Sanders? He’d be in a group with the likes of Knudsen, Shawn Moran, Morton, Andersson, Crump, King, Shirra as world class riders, but not quite the creme de la creme. Sanders was also 14 years into his British career when it came to a tragic end aged 29. Sigalos was 24 and just into his sixth year in the UK. So they were at very different stages of their careers. If - big IF - Sanders has gone on to be world champion, he would have been the oldest first time winner ever at that time, breaking Mauger’s record. Only to be subsequently beaten by Ermolenko and Gollob. Anyway, we really are going round in circles now. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree :-)

I did and he was good. Very good. But not great. Have a look at his 84 World Champs record...2nd to Crump in Aus Final, 4th in Overseas, 11th (and final qualifier) from Intercontinental, 11th and 5pts in the final. Also in the World Pairs, 8 pts in the semi and 6 in the final from six rides. Was this a rider on the up and set to beat Nielsen, Gundersen and the rest at Bradford 85? Katowice 86? Amsterdam 87? Vojens 88? Not on your nelly.

I’m really not sure where this comes from. Was Lee unmotivated in 1983? Also Sanders has really started to believe in himself? It’s just imaginary thinking and not grounded in any evidence from the individuals concerned or those around them. Or certainly none that I’ve ever read or seen. Sanders was a world class rider and to my mind, he did really really well to get on the World Final rostrum twice. But even then, I think the vast majority of people would not rank him as one of the top three in the world. Was he winning major events like the BLRC, Intercontinental Final? Was he topping the averages? Yes, he did very well to get on the rostrum, but it doesn’t mean he was in the same elite as the Penhalls, Nielsens and Gundersens of the world.

How do you know that? Obviously - tragically - he was a man in a very bad place mentally. Would a notoriously homesick Sanders have pushed on towards his 40s? Did he have the same unquenchable desire and ability as those notable exceptions Mauger and Hancock? Sorry Sidney, I can't buy that one.

Yes, but it was mid April, that’s a world away from having that average in Sept. Morton, Carter etc were also usually up in the mid 11s at that stage of the season. His best chance was in 84 on a track he rode brilliantly with a wide open field and he was inexplicably poor. At aged 29-34, was he really set to challenge the Danes from 85-89? I don’t see it.

I did go to that final and he absolutely romped it. I’ve no doubt he would have passed Nielsen should he needed in his final race too. Even now when you see it on YouTube, just watch the noticeable extra speed he has on the rest of the field. He’s leaving everyone for dead on the straights.

Playing Devil's Advocate, you could have made a similar argument against Gundersen or Nielsen had their careers ended as abruptly in 84. Nielsen had yet to really contend in a World Final in four attempts, Gundersen had missed out on qualifying in 82. Both had yet to reach the rostrum. Whilst Sanders and Carter were also lost far too soon and they could have been contenders, I do think their best chances had passed them by. I can't say that for a 24 year old Sigalos.

Well, I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder He was the same age as both Nielsen and Gundersen when his career abruptly ended, had achieved more than both to that point and was not yet at his peak. I certainly wouldn't bracket him with Les Collins, as much as I liked Les, his purple patch in the summer of 82 was very much a one-off. All ifs, buts and maybes, but I think there was ample evidence Siggy would have been at the very sharp end for a good time before his career came to a premature halt.

Well, you say that.... But he'd scored a maximum in the World Pairs, finished on a World Final rostrum, won the British Open in a run off v Nielsen (when it was a chunky £5k prize) and finished 1983 with a 10.75 average, second only to Nielsen. Beyond the achievements, he was a really classy stylish rider who looked at home on tracks big and small. Sad to think his career was done at 24. I think he had a heck of a lot more to give were it not for a knackered ankle.

I think there is a lot of truth in that. Of the list I gave above earlier of those lost to the sport prematurely, the biggest imponderable is Dennis Sigalos. By 1983, I'd have had him, Nielsen and - for one final season - Lee as the world's best riders. But he never did get the chance to capitalise on his talent. From 84-89, Erik and Hans were undisputable 1 and 2. But I reckon a fit Sigalos would have been right in the mix.

Jeez, that's a stretch. I grew up on a healthy diet of PC and Mort. But to suggest they were better than Tai Woffinden is bordering on silly. There's a credible case for PC having equal or more natural talent than Tai. But in every other facet, he wins everytime.

He was actually past his best...and yet still performing at the very sharp end after nigh on 20 years. Kudos.

Is it just a coincidence but in world final run-offs, Gundersen rode two, won two, Nielsen rode three lost three. And in head-to heads in World Finals, Gundersen beat Nielsen 8-3.

Yes - probably. But I still say Gundersen would have had the better of him for some of those years. He just seemed to able to handle the pressure that bit better and step it up. In a GP format, that pressure would still have been intense throughout and I'd still fancy Gundersen to come out top. Also, worth noting that Hans crumbled in 1996 too when he was in the drivers seat on home turf to let Billy Hamill it - and that was in a GP format. That said, over a GP season, you'd have to fancy him for 90, 91, 92, 94. Ermolenko was a fully deserving champ in 1993. Also, it is very difficult to compare eras. But the one Hans occupied stands out as the one where more top riders - and realistic contenders for the world title - ended their careers prematurely. In modern day speedway, I would say only Darcy Ward is the only true top notch rider the sport has lost prematurely. From the 80s/early 90s, you could include Penhall, Carter, Sigalos, Lee, Sanders, Pedersen, Gundersen, and Jonsson in that list. So, in short, Nielsen was good enough to win more and really, he should have done.

It does make you wonder why Carl Blackbird didn’t go further. I recall he had a decent run as Golden Helmet holder around that time too...might even have beaten Gundersen in that run too?

Best team ever (through gritted teeth). Everything just clicked. And yet on paper, Wigg was stepping up a division and was still relatively unproven at top level, Pedersen was a raw debutant, Ravn was dropped and unwanted by Belle Vue and King started the season as a very young second string still establishing himself. But they were all absolutely brilliant - even the existing spine of the team Gundersen, Collins and Grahame stepped up a another level.

It was. I was there and it was a glorious sunny rare Friday night meeting at Hyde Road. Great that it was captured for posterity too and with the superb commentary of Dave Lanning :-) I am a big Mort fan, so this gives me ample opportunity to indulge myself. Oddly enough, the ones most etched in the memory were not so much Mort at his best (as above), but scraping through World Championship rounds. In 86, winning his last race at the Intercontinental at Bradford, making a rare start and hanging on from Pedersen, Thorp and Shirra (?) after an otherwise unconvincing meeting. Also, the 87 British Final, being last away in his final ride and facing elimination but picking off Doncaster and Cross (on the last turn) to sneak through. I think it was the relief and living every second of those races that made them so memorable.

Remember the Falcons having a really odd look in 1994 (or 93?) - Henk Bangma, Andy Bossner and Toni Svab. All came out of the blue. Svab turned out to be a solid signing, Bossner had the odd moment, but was really inconsistent, Bangma was well out of his depth.

From a sporting perspective, it's a fairly interesting development...no more. The idea that the fastest rider gets to choose the best riding position is a bit underwhelming. But there is potential here. If there were bonus points to be gained from qualifying, that might make it more interesting, say 5-3-2-1 for the top four? From a tech perspective, this could open the door to more interesting developments. I find swimming a very boring sport. But at the Olympics and major televised meets, I do like the red line of the world record that is superimposed onto the race. I wonder if something similar could be used for speedway? In a boring race for example, it becomes a whole lot more interesting if Tai Woffinden is chasing down the track record. I have also long thought starting tapes to be very old fashioned. Surely, the GPs could easily use a laser beam device, which could provide absolute accuracy for any 'tape' touching. It could also be used to decide any particularly tight finishes - the winner breaks the beam first.