fatface

I apologise. I misread the meaning of your post, I believed you were referring to all 15. Hands up. Sorry.

Ok, well let's hear of your 15 better riders than, given that ALL the GP riders are chosen on commercial grounds.

When you assume....etc. Because of his age, I assumed 10 years ago, he'd be long gone from the SGP. I was wrong. I assumed anyone deep into their 40s would no longer to be able to compete at the top level. I was wrong. If you base your assumptions (and you have) on speedway history and other riders, you are making a mistake. To repeat myself, there is no other rider in history doing what he has done at his age. He doesn't fit into any conventional template or graph you - or anyone else - might have in mind. Is he in the top 15 riders in the world still? If you don't believe he is, then I'll challenge you again, make the case for 15 riders being better than him. Name them. Make the case for Antonio Lindback, Janusz Kolodziej, Robert Lambert etc. If you truly believe he is no longer in the world's top 15, it should be very easy for you.

I actually rated him above Gundersen and Nielsen in the very early 80s. Beyond the obvious 81 World Final performance, he outscored those giants in Test matches too around that time. On my first visit to Brandon in 82, we cheered the Aces onto a crucial 40-38 win (happiness is...!) despite a maximum from TK. Mort and PC were in determined mood, but could not get near a faultless Tommy Knudsen that night. But I think he picked up a bad back injury in Australia one winter (?) and that just seemed to check his progress as Gundersen and Nielsen moved onto the next level. It's also curious that Ole Olsen ended up firmly in the Gundersen camp, rather than Knudsen whom had been a long-time team-mate and - you would have thought - a more obvious fit. Maybe it's just that Erik showed the greater ambition to seek help? That also might have been a factor in Gundersen reaching the top and Tommy not quite. I'd also like his take on the 86 World Final and the clash with Nielsen. Definitely an interview I'd like to read :-)

The first - and by far - most important consideration regarding riders who take part in the World Championship is "Do we have the world's top 15 riders?". Anything less than that as the primary consideration undermines its credibility. Dismiss 5th if you like, but it's well within the top 15 and were it not for this year's sad exceptional circumstances, there's every indication from his most recent form at league and World Championship level, he would still be up at the sharper end of the competition. If you can make a credible case that there are 15 riders in the world better than Greg Hancock, by all means have a crack. Make that case. I'd love to see it.

Thanks very much both. It would be great to see those lists. Just out of pure curiousity. Are they on-line at all?

It's based on last year, the most recent we can go with, not 20 years ago. No one is saying it should be based on 20 years ago. 2018, 5th place, 7 points from 3rd, four times finallist. Still a prominent contender. Comfortably in the world top 15. End of.

Thanks Tony. Good to know I am not going mad. Is John Gustix? It'd be great to see those rankings again, just out of pure curiousity.

Sorry to bang on about Hancock, but we are not talking about a guy who is in the same place as Ivan Mauger on his 1985 Farewell Tour - a good five years past being in the world's elite. We are talking about a guy still firmly in the world's top 5 when he last swung his leg over a bike in anger less than 12 months ago. We're all guilty of assuming he is past it because no other rider in the sport's history was performing at his level at his age. I thought he was past it 10 years ago...and he's won three titles since then! Like him or not, he has long ago shattered our pre-conceived illusions of what a rider can and can't do at his age. Would people suggest that Valentino Rossi should not be in the MotoGPs because he is in his 40s and hasn't won a title in 10 years? He's still among the elite riders, so why would you?

Yes, I share the appetite for exciting young blood in the GP...you'll be hard pressed to find anyone on this forum who doesn't want that. But the integrity of a World Championship comes first and foremost and speaking purely objectively, Greg Hancock still merits a position amongst the top of the world speedway. Subjectively, I'd love to see Nicki Pedersen still involved getting into the odd scrape and stirring the pot. But I can't make a credible case for him being at the very top level anymore and it's right that he is not in the mix now.

The point I would make though is that a fit, healthy and happy Hancock still merits his status as a contender. Whether he's nearly 50 or not, is neither here nor there. I speak as someone who had (wrongly) written him off a good 10 years ago. Like him or not, he has rewritten what can and can't be done several times over. And in last year's GP season, he was 5th, just 7 points shy of the bronze medal with four finals appearances across the season. Until he has a poor season outside the top 8 or misses several GP seasons due to his family's terrible circumstances, I think there has to be a place for him - if he wants it. He's earned that right.

Why? Would it mean 9th and 10th get automatic places instead? Or would it be the next two from the Challenge? Genuinely don't know....so would appreciate an explanation. As for Greg Hancock, he might not be everyone's most thrill-a-minute racer. But on pure numbers alone, he is one of the SGP's best ever riders. And he qualified on merit for this year's series, so, should there should be a place for him....if he wants it that is.

One for Tony...and possible others? I have a (very) vague recollection of Speedway Mail in the early 80s - possibly earlier? - of an annual World Top 10 unofficial rankings being printed in the Mail, provided by prominent reporters from different countries. Naturally, there was a bit of national bias with the Polish correspondent ranking Zenon Plech higher than other national scribes, but it still made for interesting reading. So, I guess I have a few questions... 1) have I imagined this? 2) if not, please can someone dig them out for a refresh? 3) still if not, perhaps Tony can give us some background story on how they came about? Thank you :-)

You are a rarity in the Midlands. I don't think many Team Kenny Carter coats were sold at Dudley Wood. I must add, there was a pantomime element to it all. Much like a lot of the riders mentioned. I loved booing Kenny Carter racing against Belle Vue. But I was also bloody glad he was in the England team too!

Surprised Kenny Carter not mentioned. He was a massive loss to the sport. But I don't think he had many fans outside of Yorkshire. The boos followed him everywhere.

"You can't do that Andreas Jonsson!" Very likeable, entertaining rider and talented enough to be World Champion...and he very nearly was. Happy retirement.

Does anyone know who was the last to wear one regularly in British speedway? Finn Thomson and Kelvin Mullarkey come to mind as riders that persevered with them into the 1980s - anyone know of anyone else?

I could sort of understand the questioning of Tai Woffinden if he was just a gate and go rider. Thing is though, he is a rare rider who has the full toolkit as his disposal...and proves it time and time again. Yes, he can gate. But is brilliant from the back, is uber fast, highly professional, able to consistently perform under the highest pressure and has longevity. And you can't say that for many riders in the sport's history...not even several world champions. What more do you want from a World Champion? I think it boils down to change. People don't like it. So when a rider comes along who challenges their cast-in-stone views over speedway gods of the past, some people find it difficult to accept. Doubly so when he's young, tattooed, opinionated and talks with a funny accent.

and I'm a big fan of my window cleaner's work...but the cheeky bugger still wants paying a decent wage every time! Saying the fans want to see him is all well and good. But you have to draw the line somewhere. Should he risk his neck for a pittance? Mark Loram may well have found it viable to race in the UK 12-15 years ago, as did many other GP riders. But would he in 2019? It's says it all that there is only one GP rider racing in the UK in 2019, in 2004 there were at least 13 of them in the UK.

I'll throw is a couple of points on those decrying Tai Woffinden for not racing in the UK.... He is freelance worker and as a speedway rider, one who only has a few years - if he is lucky - to make his money. Why would he race in Britain if the rewards are not great and the negative impact it would have on his bigger earners and sporting and commercial goals? Any freelance worker has decisions to make on which work and clients to prioritise. He is no different. Do you think his predecessors as British world champions were all riding here just to put something back?? They raced in the UK because it was where they made the most money, end of. If Peter Collins, Mike Lee, Gary Havelock and the rest had the options of making more money in Poland and Sweden for less meetings, they would have done just the same. I may be wrong, but I also don't recall any of them putting on free training schools for British riders, or for that matter, raising £90k for children's charities.

From the outside, Rosco comes across as little more than a tourist on these trips, and the twitter selfies at the venue, on the plane etc., only underline that perception. I understand Woffinden's frustration, he demands the best from himself and those around him. Ivan Mauger was no different. Rosco-Woffinden will never, ever work. It is like Ian Holloway managing Cristiano Ronaldo. There are thin pickings around, but if I was to choose someone, it would be Peter Adams - if he had the appetite. He's ticking on, but he's the only one who has the gravitas, experience and record to do the type of job we would all like to be done by the GB team manager.

Yep, that was also on Sunday Grandstand, about a week after it had happened I believe. Made quite a decent half hour package.

Looks like a good piece! It's a bit late now, but I would be interested to know what his thoughts were on an infamous 1982 meeting at Hyde Road, where Steve kicked off Louis Carr, had a centre green scrap with Ian Thomas and then had more fisticuffs with team-mate Bobby Schwartz! No doubt he was a hard rider, but he wasn't averse to cross the line into being down right dirty at times. Always worth watching of course!

100% correct. I've made a similar case on the forum before for a festival-style model offering much better value to the whole family. Sadly, sensible voices like this get drowned out by a dying generation of hard core followers who get their knickers in a twist over trivialities like doubling up. The sport in Britain needs revolution not evolution.

All of those are capable of winning a GP. Had he not perked up in recent years, people would have had Lindgren in the same bracket. Ditto Andreas Jonsson before he had a stormer of a year and finished second. Did you also find it a bit samey when riders like Phil Crump, Shawn Moran, Soren Sjosten, Chris Morton, Kai Niemi, Jan Andersson make lots of world finals and not win any? That's sport, not everyone can win, but you need those contenders to fully appreciate the winners. A few years ago, all those sprinters had no chance against Usain Bolt, but seeing the best of the rest trailing in his wake is what made the spectacle.