fatface

"Confessions of a speedway promoter" is still an excellent read and head and shoulders the best speedway book I've ever read. There's some far fetched arguments comparing John Louis and Tony Davey favourably with Peter Collins, which are obviously coloured by bias and possibly a grudge? But it still presents a fantastic insight of the challenges of speedway promotion. There is one observation that is relevant to this discussion where Berry talks about the need to prioritise the casual fan and general public above the hardcore, who will come rain or shine anyway. That's bang on and something that the sport as a whole has lost sight of. You are also quite right Sidney to highlight that there is still talent within the sport. To tar every promoter with the same brush would be unfair.

Sorry I should have been clearer. I too have heard the same. Rather than "under break even", I meant "less than break even".

Who's sneering? Who's making you unwelcome? The point is Brian is that if the sport panders entirely to its 50+ year olds core market, it has a very limited future. Valid points are being made to draw in as wide a demographic as possible. Surely after 67 years you can see the sport badly needs to be fresh and relevant to young people as it was to you in the 50s? The point is made elsewhere over Macdonald's being geared towards kids. Partly true. A range of its products are geared towards kids. But there's something there for everyone in the average British family. Good coffee, burgers, healthy meal options, iPads, newspapers and the place is constantly being cleaned. Speedway needs to widen its vision to the entire landscape and provide a product that can appeal to a wider number of potential customers. "Doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity" said Einstein. You don't have to take my word for it, take Einstein's.

Correctomundo...and exactly the sort of open-minded approach needed. The product has been utterly geared towards 50+ year olds for yonks and here we are. I think by general consensus Belle Vue Speedway currently has the strongest offering of all the venues in the UK at the moment. Good facilities, great track with excellent racing, city location in the top league. Yet, as I understand it, they are operating under break even levels using the outdated midweek speedway model. If Belle Vue can't cut it, what chance have other tracks got of a long-term future?

Sadly, I agree. I don't have all the answers. But I definitely think the answers do not lie among the current stakeholders of the sport. Promoters, riders, fans cannot see the wood for the trees. Tinkering with doubling up and bonus points is utterly irrelevant to the wider public. The BSPA should get in some independent consultants to do a proper market analysis and business plan, be braced for some radical proposals and have the balls to implement them. Then again, Poole Pirates might change their name to Poole Pink Elephants.

Lots of reasons why. The cost of living has meant a sharp rise in households of two working parents rather than the typical stay-at-home mums of the 50s/60s. It's up by 50% even on the 70s. People also have to commute further for work then ever before, lengthening the working day. The image of a typical family gathering round for 5pm teatime is a quaint one, but less common. Also, the bulk of 1950s/60s speedway venues operated in heavily populated city centre locations with regular public transport links. There are no Wimbledons, Southamptons, New Cross, Norwich and the like any more. How many families can walk to their local speedway these days compared to the 50s and 60s? Instead of grumbling why families don't come anymore. Make it more appealing and easier for them.

Exactly the problem. Speedway is trying to please a dwindling hardcore. Trying to please 70% of 400 people then next year trying to please 70% of 350 people is no way to run a sustainable business. If speedway is to have any successful future, it needs to consult with and tailor its product for those people it is not attracting to the stadium, not the shrinking hardcore it is. Do you think cricket came up with Twenty20 by consulting with the few hundred who bother with county cricket? Not sure where the standing around comes from. Think of it as a festival, you pick the bands you want to see, those you don't and after you have seen what you want to see then go home. No one's forcing anyone to stand around?! The starting point has got to be the target market. Who does speedway want to appeal to? And then create the experience from there. That's why Twenty20 is a success. That's why UFC is a success. It's also why horse racing has thrived..it has become a much more family friendly experience. That's why I put forward the multi sport weekend festival model, to appeal to the young family market. It's far from a personal wishlist of activities, because its not about me and its not about you either. It's about getting the sport a new and bigger audience to give it a fighting chance of survival.

Hmm. I think you've added 2 and 2 and got five there Rob. I understand it's practically difficult to alternate sports on the track. I'm talking about 60-90mins slots per sport, then the next sport. Have your pint, have a look, maybe see what other entertainments kicking about and enjoy the atmosphere with a bigger weekend crowd. Of course, I very much doubt any of this will happen, nor even be attempted. Much more likely - almost certain - is we continue to carry on as normal with our 50-80yr old hardcore and keep the likes of The Third Man happy, serving up the same old midweek speedway model and sleepwalk into oblivion.

That's interesting to hear. Thanks Barry. Appreciate you coming on here and sharing your experiences and insight. I can well imagine there are restrictions on meeting formats agreed and decreed by the BSPA. And for the most part with the best intentions. But British Speedway is not in a position of the English Premier League or the NBA in delivering a winning formula. So, I hope...if there is a positive to come of this...that the BSPA will loosen the guidelines to allow promoters to be a bit more creative in delivering a full value experience for punters. None of us have all the answers, but I do know that plodding on with the same format definitely isn't the answer.

Really? Speedway fans still get their 75-90mins fix of the sport, so too do fans of the other sports. Are you not coming back because other sports are taking place around your sport? Some you might like, some you may not. Would people really cut off their nose to spite their face? Speedway's big problem is that it is stuck in the 1970s, unwilling to change with an ever dwindling hard core of ageing fans who don't like change. It is a crumbling pub struggling badly because it is trying to please the old blokes who prop up the bar every week. It needs to freshen up, broaden its reach and offer real value to more people.

Great! They can spend time and money in the bar then. And while the speedway is on, fans of motocross, flat track or whatever can clear off to the bar. Win win. Of course if an additional element such as motocross is delivered within a simple speedway meeting, then of course it is going to get a lukewarm reception from a traditional speedway crowd. But if an event is marketed as a "track racing spectacular" or "bikefest" or the like, you are going to get a broader demographic..more footfall, more eyeballs, more income.

I think - unfortunately - that the race to the bottom is already well into the last lap for speedway. Carrying on as normal is not an option if the sport wants long-term survival. I think both you and Mike have some valid points. I agree with you that team-based speedway works better than individually, which is pretty much born out across the rest of Europe. But I also think Mike is bang on when he uses the Supercross event as a model that can "cut through" with the average punter. I've advocated this before, but I think a model that is worth experimenting with is a multi-sport model that would consist of a Saturday/Sunday 4-5 hour event including speedway, sidecars, quads, flat track, stock cars, greyhounds....whatever a venue can handle. Once a month, drawing in families and supporters from all disciplines, providing them with a real value for money experience. With a larger crowd, there is also greater appeal for fair rides, face painters, climbing walls, caterers, inflatables and other operators to attend and add to the atmosphere/experience. I get that not all the sports on offer appeal to all...so pick and choose! I used to go the Ace of Aces grasstrack every year in the late 80s, early 90s and i was never a big fan of the "chairs", so instead I went on the fair, had a burger, got my pic taken with a page 3 girl (I was a teenager, it was the 80s, happy days! ). I think the sport has to collaborate with other similarly struggling sports to offer a richer, fuller experience to draw in more fans. Who, let's be honest, will be counting their pennies and considering their spend even more than ever when this all ends. Ask yourself if a family of four are more likely to attend a Thursday night at Foxhall for £36 or a full Sunday afternoon for £50?

Very true. It would be delusional and arrogant if I pretended the World Finals I attended (83-92 see above) were comparable to occasions at Wembley and the like that came before. Bradford 1990 was very enjoyable and there was also something special about seeing a Brit win in Poland in 1992. But in all honesty, some of the GP events I have seen particularly at Cardiff and Torun have exceeded them in atmosphere and racing.

I was lucky to go to: 1983 Norden - fun trip with chequers travel, but an underwhelming final 1985 Bradford - produced some good racing, Gundersen taking Moran and King was one of the great world final rides 1987 Amsterdam - fun trip, but again an underwhelming final 1990 Bradford - great night time atmosphere and the racing was worthy of the occasion 1992 Wroclaw - still an iron curtain feel about the place, stayed in Berlin and had a great trip. The racing was nothing special. Thing I remember most is the mouthy Yorkshire man on the coach who became unbearable after Havelock won! Still, there were a few good humoured Cradley and Wolves fans who were a good laugh.

Hi Norman! I too struggle with where to rank him and there's no doubt in that in the noughties, he was out performed by Crump, Rickardsson, Pedersen. So was he a better rider in the decade that followed or were the opposition inferior? I tend to lean towards the former as I think in Woffinden, Zmarzlik and to a lesser degree Holder, Pedersen and Crump were still very tough opposition. Thing is, his is a career that is quite unique in speedway terms and I am struggling to think of an equivalent in other sports too. George Foreman perhaps? Maybe Roger Federer or Rafael Nadal? It's unique in that it doesn't follow the typical trajectory upwards towards a peak and then slowly meanders down. He has had at least two or three peaks! My best guess what enabled him to win titles later in his career was two main elements: 1. He was healthy...he has always been a safe rider with hardly any injuries and that played a big part in prolonging his career 2. His experience and expertise went far beyond anyone else in the pits at the latter end of his career. He had been there, done it many times over, knew the tracks, had the set ups spot on and tactically knew how to play the risk percentages better than anyone else. In terms of talent, I wouldn't have him near the top of my list. But purely in terms of longevity and consistency, he's probably no1.

Maybe. But it was the biggest meeting at Hyde Road in years and would otherwise probably have been postponed. It certainly was the wettest I'd ever seen it. A sodden track - no matter where it is - turns things into a bit of a lottery and never suits the racers. Funnily enough, I just sold a picture from that meeting on ebay...cracking pic of Mort, Les Collins and Andy Grahame (see attached). It shows how sludgy it was! Put it this way, 12 days later on a perfect track Morton was dynamite beating Kenny Carter from the back and breaking the track record on his way to winning the Northern Riders. Phil Collins wouldn't have got a sniff. In short... Belle Vue 1983 was an act of God Norden 1983 was an act of Egon

Hmmm. I think you are comparing apples and pears there.... You are omitting to mention that the Hyde Road Track for the 83 Overseas was an absolute quagmire. Had it not been a World Championship meeting, I doubt very much that it would have gone ahead. It doesn't have the same infamy as the 1984 British Final - it wasn't covered on ITV - but the track was very dodgy to say the least. That's why Mort struggled and so too did other track specialists PC and Shawn Moran. Billy Sanders went out in his last race to win the event, but ended up coming off on his own with his ass in the sludge by the fence. And as much as I liked Phil Collins, he would not have beaten such a classy field in normal circumstances. He was a freak winner in freak conditions. ps. I was there too...Norden, Amsterdam, Belle Vue

Seems like half the forum was there. Me too! Also on a coach from Amsterdam. I seem to recall an organised trip to a cheese maker too! I don't question Muller's standing as a world class rider. He was for many years. But it was more the way he won it. Thought it then and it still plays out now on the video, he is absolutely miles faster than anyone else on the day. The rest look like they are on 350ccs in comparison. Muller was good and probably a few years past his peak in 83. In normal circumstances, he would have still been a handful for everyone on home turf, as he was at the 81 WTC at Olching. But there's no way he was that much better than the world's best without there being a serious mechanical advantage at play.

First saw him ride at Swindon at some meaningless pairs event in 89. He was really poor and I thought this guy will never make it. I was ever-so-slightly wrong about that. One of the sport's true greats. Ultra professional and came across as a really classy guy too. I wish him and his family a happy and healthy retirement.

Absolutely, with Dennis Sigalos also potentially in the mix. Gundersen was no2 to Penhall at Cradley and Nielsen had a year's more BL experience than Penhall, but Penhall was still a lot quicker to the very top. Like you say, he had the lot. He was also super professional too. He could have easily operated at the top for several more years, had he wanted to. His loss was terrible for speedway. But looking at it coldly and in retrospect, it was exactly the right thing to do for him. He'd won the last title at Wembley and defended it on home turf...he was never going to top that....and certainly not at places like Norden, Bradford, Amsterdam or Vojens.

True. I should do that. Always enjoy it. Do I get a pint now too?

Ps. Don't think he gets a mention. But I really enjoyed Rye House second stringer Trevor O'brien. Bit wild, but always had a go and gave absolutely 100% effort.

It's a pick em. I lean towards Crumpy purely on what I saw with my own two eyes on visits to Northern tracks. I know they clashed at the 83 Aussie Final, but that doesn't explain them being kept apart at every World Pairs in 78, 79, 80, 81 and 82. Guys like John Titman, Phil Herne and Gary Guglielmi were preferred. Yet, I don't think there would many that would dispute that Sanders and Crump were clearly the top two Aussies at that time. Seems odd. On paper at least, a Crump/Sanders pairing would have nicked a rostrum place or two and may even have won it in 83. Clearly, there's more to it than meets the eye.

Two questions... What's the general consensus on who was the better rider Phil Crump or Billy Sanders? And, what was the beef between them? The were clearly the top two Aussies for a long time, but were only paired once for the World Pairs?

Almost guarantee? Sounds suspiciously like internet tittle tattle, unless of course you do have the balance sheet for Cardiff at your disposal. No, though not. None of us, of course, do. So, let's seek some facts we do know: 1. BSI Speedway make a chunky profit. Over £4m at the last annual accounts: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03369723/filing-history 2. The Cardiff GP has been running for 20 years...I think we are a little beyond it being a brand awareness marketing exercise now. See point 1 again...you think BSI would do it if it were not the dollar? 3. The Welsh Government invest £3.9m in major events in Cardiff, but are a little shy when it comes to the specifics of the speedway, but we know their previous grant was £850k to host the event in Cardiff: https://gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2019-10/ATISN 13379 - internal review .pdf Of course, without the black and white balance sheet for Cardiff, it's completely your prerogative to dismiss all of the above. But if you still think it a myth that Cardiff makes serious dough, then you do so knowing BSI are highly profitable business, running a showcase event for 20 years bolstered by significant state support. Think again.