fatface

Are you absolutely sure of that Sidney?

If you haven't seen this before, I envy you. Utterly unique:

Is there any soul out there who has a collection of Speedway Stars they would like to pass on to a new owner? It's for a project. Particularly looking for 1970s-00s.

Not exactly a classic, but an intriguing battle from speedway legends from three different eras.

A great shame. A talented kid too. RIP

Thanks Steve. That's an interesting way to measure them. Of course it's still all subjective whether it be John Berry or any of us plebs I too think PC would be higher on skill...or perhaps he is under scoring him based on starting. He could gate, but wasn't consistently lightening...lucky for us! When I look at that list, I regard Rickardsson and Penhall of the ones I have seen that are the complete riders. Highly professional, able to win from front and back, fast and great under pressure. To unwittingly poke the hornets nest, I'd put Woffinden along them too in that regard. I'm sure Norbold may have another name or two to any list of "complete" racers.

If you asked me to compile a list of the most skillful speedway riders ever, he'd be top or bloody close to the top. If you asked me to compile a list of the best riders in high pressure situations, he'd slip a bit. In the end, I'd finish sitting on the fence a bit and saying that the world championship split between Gundersen and Nielsen would be about the same GP or one off format.

Interesting that in world final head to heads, including run offs, Gundersen won 8 of the 11 races with Nielsen. It's very interesting to discuss which world champions would still have been had the GP system been in place them and vice versa. But very difficult to accurately say, because both required entirely different approaches. One rewards the ability to peak on a given high pressure occasion, the other high quality consistency over a sustained period. I've worked closely in athletics and seen the former approach up close. Athletes will "compete" through the season, but it is all towards being in maximum peak performance condition for the Olympics. Quite often there are athletes who will get beaten on the circuit, but they have been balancing heavy training with competition where they are testing tactics/techniques and by the time they get to the big one, they are ready to win. In speedway terms, in short, I think Gundersen would have adapted. I don't think Nielsen would have dominated quite as much as some think. Gundersen had an unnerving ability to deliver when it mattered and I reckon he would have done the same under a GP system. Similarly, I have also seen Mark Loram's win sometimes questioned and yet I think the GP format was - on paper - a trickier format for him than a one-off. On a given day he was well capable of beating the world's best and that year, he was consistently brilliant. So in my mind, it was thoroughly deserved.

Jeez. This kicked off. Again! We are all biased to some degree, the difficulty is being able to put that natural bias aside in order to be rational. I'd love to say that Chris Morton is the greatest rider ever but I cannot credibly back that up. Thing is, if your starting position for a discussion is personal preference and prejudice and not facts and evidence, you always going to struggle when challenged.

Ha! Thank you Steve. Tbh, for the last couple of days I've spent more time on pork sandwich and crackling forums.

Even as a Hyde Road regular I cannot vouch for the truth of that at all. Both great riders in different eras. But your black and white narrative is untrue and clouded in sentimentality. PC opted out of British Speedway and riding for Belle Vue and England in 1981 and again in 85 (making himself only available for selection for the World Pairs if required). As I understand it, he was also ruthless in his financial negotiations with Belle Vue, even coming close to going to Leicester and King's Lynn in the 80s. PC did what was best for PC. Fair enough. It's a short career and he understood his value and leveraged it. I'm sure Tai Woffinden has a similar approach. It's no coincidence that some of the most successful riders in the sport's history - Mauger, Briggs, Fundin, Olsen, Pedersen, Rickardsson all put themselves first and foremost. That's what separates the great from the very good. Just as PC is not Mr Perfect, neither is Tai Woffinden Dr Evil either. He has raised £100k for Great Ormond Street and £35 for Cancer Research UK.

Thanks. That makes me feel a whole lot better about missing out.

Never got to Dudley Wood. I also don't think we missed an away trip to the Shay either from 82-85. Always a great view, great atmosphere, good banter and with Kenny Carter, PC and Mort, always great racing too Another thoroughly enjoyable season was watching Exeter in 1989. Richard Green was unmissable and there were some brilliant cup matches against Berwick.

Yep same as. Great year. The Penhall/Carter clash was also a big deal (still is!). Had my first ventures to some away tracks too...the Shay, Owlerton and Brandon. Larry Ross was brilliant that year. I think his away average was better than PC and Mort, which speaks volumes of his importance that year.

Glad to see this again. Not seen this version for years. It was as i remembered, including Kenny Carter's classic interview. ITV's coverage is quite blatantly "wink, wink, nudge, nudge". Who can ever remember the scrutineer and his nationality ever being mentioned as part of a World Final's coverage before or since? Is it some anti-German/anti-European bias on flagrant display or is it credible evidence of something more sinister? A bit of both I suspect. Certainly, Mike Lee's insight into the track being completely different in practice to the meeting was evidence of the world's best being kept in the dark to favour their man. And just the racing itself. Even without Dave Lanning's conspiracy laced commentary, Muller is operating at a different level to the rest.

The godfather of speedway journalism. RIP.

It is invalid. Utterly. You are comparing deaths from a one virus with no social restrictions whatsoever with deaths from another virus with self isolation and social distancing in place. This subject is carrying over multiple threads now and you are making yourself look quite the fool across them all.

And people who do die do so freely wandering around without self isolation or social distancing. I don't know why you persist with this comparison of flu and covid 19. It's completely invalid. To state the bleeding obvious, the confirmed cases and deaths of covid 19 would be vastly increased were the drastic restrictions not in place. Listen to the experts. Jeez.

You've personalised it and that's unfortunate and very undignified. Your point however is quite right. There has been some mind boggling postings on this subject. It's tempting to wade in and point out the utter invalidity of comparing other forms of death with COVID-19 quite simply because none of the other "comparables" have been significantly softened by social distancing and self isolation. I could do that, but then I could spend time on a Welsh Rugby Forum extolling the virtues of Will Carling.

First time I have seen that. Thanks for sharing. Extraordinary.

Might be a bit harsh on old Mavis this, but has there ever been a rider more frequently overtaken? He could hop out, had good equipment, but he left canyon sized gaps for the rest.

Absolutely. The marketing of the sport is hugely flawed, but I still believe that the basic product is still very good. I don't have much truck with "better in the old days" crowd. Much of today's action is equally good if not better that what has gone in the past. Ditto, some of the dross of today is matched by the past too. From my first meeting it has always stood out as a unique and special sport. Four crazy guys skidding around a track with no brakes on for minute long races...and the smeil too.. oh the smell! I like a lot of sports, but at its best, I still believe nothing compares to it.

This gem...

Recommended. Worth a read and a re-read. Tony Mac should be paying me for this

I have my answer (suggestions). See previous postings. And that is to run weekend multi-sport track racing festivals including speedway in a wider offering to appeal to more families and wider casual and motorsports fans. The darts is a case in point. They targeted a young-ish lads night out crowd, got the music, the branding, the venues, the girls and lots of booze right and it's a big success. Ask the GPs? I think the GPs are holding the cards now with healthy crowds, sponsors and international TV coverage. Instead the weekend model should embrace and build around it. Put your event on and conclude it just prior to the GP and put it on the big screens in the bar afterwards....and hang onto your punters. We have to start with a blank piece of paper. And you are quite right, if we were starting from day 1 tomorrow, we would not come up with what we have today.