cyclone

What are the specific details of the press cuttings you refer to ?. In order to check their validity can you provide specific details of the source ,content, date published. Note that when someone provided details that quote content, source and publication date, around the time of the event, you choose to ignore these, because they do not fit with your unsubstantiated interpretation. As you appear unwilling to respond on the contemporary evidence provided, your research appears somewhat flawed when it comes to handling non anecdotal evidence available in 1923.

That link is just a review for a book and has no definitive references to contemporary published reports of 1923. Nothing there to substantiate your belief re JSH. Note you still have not responded to Ross Garrigan's factual references to the local newspaper article of December 1923, that indicates that the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club, not JSH, organised the event on 15/12/1923. Can you provide an independent reference of the actual event (e.g. another local newspaper report dated 1923, or details from the programme for the actual event) which contradicts Mr Garrigan's newspaper extract of 11/12/1923 ?

Ah more unsubstantiated quotes from 2011, whilst disregarding the the previously quoted newspaper reports of 1923, which contradict the above and like an ostrich with it's head in the sand, you still choose to ignore.

Fair enough, but how about answering the not unreasonable question, contained in the full post which you edited out for some reason known only to you. Did you do this to avoid answering the question, which I have now corrected, namely:- Why do you place such credence on quotes from books written years later, yet choose to ignore the contemporary local newspaper reports that Ross Garrigan has already referred to ? For example please explain why post 94 by Ross Garrigan on this thread , viz. :- “I have already mentioned that it wasn't Hoskins who "staged" the motor cycle racing which took place on the Maitland Showground on December 15, 1923. As proof, I submit this extract from a Hunter Valley newspaper dated 11/12/1923, the week leading up to the said carnival. The "club" referred to is the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club: - "On Saturday next, the club will hold motor cycle races, in conjunction with other sports, under the electric light on the Maitland Showground in aid of the Maitland Orphanage and H.R.A. and H. Association. The races are open to all members of recognised motor cycle clubs.." That item appeared in the newspaper column of the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club. Then followed the list of club officials who would conduct the racing”. should be ignored ? I await your reply.

Direct Question Jack :- Why do you place such credence on quotes from books written years later, yet choose to ignore the contemporary local newspaper reports that Ross Garrigan has already referred to ? For example please explain why post 94 by Ross Garrigan on the now closed Maitland Speedway Anniversary thread , viz. :- “I have already mentioned that it wasn't Hoskins who "staged" the motor cycle racing which took place on the Maitland Showground on December 15, 1923. As proof, I submit this extract from a Hunter Valley newspaper dated 11/12/1923, the week leading up to the said carnival. The "club" referred to is the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club: - "On Saturday next, the club will hold motor cycle races, in conjunction with other sports, under the electric light on the Maitland Showground in aid of the Maitland Orphanage and H.R.A. and H. Association. The races are open to all members of recognised motor cycle clubs.." That item appeared in the newspaper column of the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club. Then followed the list of club officials who would conduct the racing”. should be ignored ? I await your reply.

Well said I refer to the following from post 94 by Ross Garrigan on the now closed Maitland Speedway Anniversary thread :- “I have already mentioned that it wasn't Hoskins who "staged" the motor cycle racing which took place on the Maitland Showground on December 15, 1923. As proof, I submit this extract from a Hunter Valley newspaper dated 11/12/1923, the week leading up to the said carnival. The "club" referred to is the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club: - "On Saturday next, the club will hold motor cycle races, in conjunction with other sports, under the electric light on the Maitland Showground in aid of the Maitland Orphanage and H.R.A. and H. Association. The races are open to all members of recognised motor cycle clubs.." That item appeared in the newspaper column of the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club. Then followed the list of club officials who would conduct the racing”. Is anyone on here seriously doubting the veracity of the above and if so let them state the documented facts and their source which show the above to be “spurious”. Just because Johnny Hoskins claimed to have invented Speedway, as alleged by some on here, that is not proof in itself and is certainly not supported by contemporary news reports of the time. BFD have you bothered to check the Hunter Valley newspaper dated 11/12/1923 or are you more concerned with trolling on here ?

No disgrace in acknowledging that you were unaware that Christian Weber had revised his view, based on contemporary evidence that was unearthed later. Christian's statement:- "I didn't know it, I admit that. All the reference works I read up to that time repeated the Hoskins' creation of speedway myth. Ten years on, I know that no-one has "invented" speedway, that the sport has evolved, and that it does not have a "Godfather". imo recognises the assiduous factual research carried out by others, particularly Ross Garrigan, & Norman Jacobs. No one is belittling Johnny Hoskins significant contribution to Speedway, but it would be disingenuous to continue to credit him with something that has now conclusively been shown not to be the case.

Usual standard reply I see, plenty sarcasm, but lack of meaningful response when politely asked to provide facts. I bow to The Red Herring Master

Re Peter Oakes piece in S Star of 17/3/2012, I would not disagree with his opening paragraph:- " The father of speedway racing - or at least that's what history decrees, although there is some question as to whethe he really did run the first-ever dirt track meeting in the world " Personally I place more credence on the contemporary evidence that Ross Garrigan has unearthed and referred to regarding motorcycling events in Australia in 1923 and earlier. Of course it is up to the individual to judge how much detail they require before making up their mind one way or another. Out of interest has anyone come across evidence that Johnny Hoskins publicly claimed to invent motorcycle Speedway ? I am aware that others (including his son Ian) have made this assertion, but IIRC, JSH mentions in one of his books organising such events at West Maitland, but does not go as far as to claim to be inventor of the sport. He may well be the Inventor, but if others wish to research other earlier avenues, why should their findings not be considered with an open mind ? For instance the invention of the telephone is commonly recognised as by one of my countrymen, Alexander Graham Bell, but some would contest that American, Elisha Gray, made the first phone.

The only person denigrating others on here is your good-self.. I see you have ducked out of responding to the question I asked in my original post, namely :- "As you appear to be critical of the lengthy research carried out by the likes of Ross Garrigan and Norman Jacobs, could you name the "professional" historians that you place more credence on ?" To infer that I have denigrated JSH achievements, please provide the proof on here. No one is compelled to accept the status quo and if someone wishes to question it's validity based on their research findings that's fair enough. However your sarcasm towards others with differing views and your unwillingness to provide reasoned counter arguments brings nothing to the topic. BTW I do not know whether or not JSH did invent motor cycle speedway and until incontrovertible proof is published one way or the other, I will keep an open mind on the subject.

I mentioned being wary of believing that a Promoter will always be infallible in recalling events and cited an example. Given I was responding to BFD implying that someone actively involved in Speedway (Bill Buckley) was likely know more about events in 1923 than the likes of Ross Garrigan, I assumed you would be able to follow the gist of my reply. Obviously I was mistaken in your case.

As you appear to be critical of the lengthy research carried out by the likes of Ross Garrigan and Norman Jacobs, could you name the "professional" historians that you place more credence on ? I would be wary of believing that a Promoter will always be infallible in recalling events. For example the race that Peter Craven lost his life, Ian Hoskins, the Edinburgh Promoter later stated that Craven started off a 20 yard handicap. This was incorrect as though it was intended to be the case, the crowd that evening voiced their displeasure at the proposed handicap, and all four riders started from the gate. How do I know ? - well I was standing right behind the starting gate at the front of the crowd ! That Ian Hoskins got this wrong can be corroborated by various people that were present that evening, including Mike Hunter (current Director of Edinburgh Speedway) and Jim Henry (current Clerk of the Course, at Armadale). Of course you might choose not to believe the word of "amateur" spectators

I have really enjoyed this thread and find the level of research by Ross Garrigan, and Norman Jacobs in particular, to be very impressive. I doubt anyone will ever be able to unearth incontrovertible proof of where the first pukka speedway event took place, given the mention of earlier claims from the USA, South Africa, & England also. Regarding Australia, are there any reports of when bikes without brakes are first mentioned, racing anti-clockwise on cinder surfaces, etc. ? In fact when where events first advertised as Motor Cycle Speedway/ Dirt Track Racing ? Re John Hoskins, imo his lasting contribution was to bring the Sport to a wider audience by the large number of venues he was involved in at their birth, together with the high profile publicity he generated for Speedway.

To remind you, the above is what you originally posted, which you later stated was "confidential". You now quote the following:- So where in the quotes attributed to John Campbell does he state that "his demands are excessive". ? Do you have a comprehension problem in being unable to differentiate between "very expensive" and "excessive demands" ? If I was offered a Rolls Royce at list price it would be very expensive, whereas if a dealer was to quote the same price for an Hyundai, that would be an excessive demand. Given that you originally claimed that the information was confidential, you are certainly guilty of embellishing what was already in the public domain BTW I do know that Ryan has previously included the cost of bringing his family across to the UK as part of the package he negotiates, and perhaps this factor contributes to the "expensive" tab.

More bluster trying to cover up your attention seeking comments. You make an allegation and when challenged to name the source, it suddenly becomes "confidential". Aye it was confidential when you spouted it out in the public domain in the first place. Probably about as accurate as your spurious claim on here that no Edinburgh fans were at Plymouth vs Edinburgh on 29th October

So the clique of gossip know-alls back up each other up on here, surprise, surprise ! FYi being a Monarchs supporter, where Ryan rode from 2008 - 10, I never heard any utterance that he was not good value for whatever he was paid. That you admit disclosing alleged confidential information, which could be prejudicial to a specific rider's future job prospects in a public forum, is hardly praiseworthy conduct. .

So in other words unsubstantiated gossip which you are happy to spout on here as quasi-fact. Of course an awkward GSA figure had nothing to do with it or did that never cross your mind ? BTW if "said in confidence" as you allege, you're not very good at keeping such information privy

Well that will come as news to the 20 odd Monarchs fans that were present, including myself. As your first assertion was incorrect, on what actual factual information do you base your claim re Fisher's excessive demands, or is it just another vacuous statement from someone claiming to be in the know ?

Believe that riders who moved from EL to PL full time are permitted to return to the PL under their last PL GSA. However this facility is available for one season only. Therefore the alleged 6+ EL GSA restriction to return to the PL does not apply. For instance, as Larsen and Fisher rode in the PL in 2010,, they could return,to the PL, whereas Simon Stead did not ride in the PL in 2010.

T IMO the days of the asset system are numbered as I very much doubt their legality. It smacks of serfdom where riders are tied to a club, but receive no recompense when a Promotion deems they are no longer required, but still expect either a loan or transfer fee should some other team wish to employ them. We have witnessed where some clubs have acquired a bloated asset base, in some cases where the riders signed, have yet to ride for their so-called parent club. A fairer system would be to sign riders on a single season contract which could only be dissolved by mutual agreement by both parties during the actual season.

I actually agree that Mr S is correct in civil law that once a rider's contract has expired, he is a free agent. The fact that the Promoters operate their own domestic system, this will still prevail unless someone challenges their arrangement through the courts. When clubs dispense with the services of riders, as far as I know, these riders do not receive compensation, so the converse should apply. Maybe the answer is for clubs to offer riders longer term contracts to protect their investments, as is the case for football, but they should be prepared to pay compensation to the rider if they break the contractual terms. Re Nick Morris, I guess this was just an example that Mr S used to make the point and was not intended as a specific dig at Glasgow. After all come the end of the 2012 season, perhaps Glasgow will acquire Cameron Heeps from Ipswich for zilch

Great racing and hard luck to the Indians when they lost Sullivan yesterday, the innocent victim. For me the the defining moment tonight was when Pedersen was suckered into the tapes by Daniel Davidsson in the second reserves race. What on the night was looking like a 5 - 1 to the home team, ended up a 5 - 1 to the Pirates. Wonder if the British Pirates will match their Swedish counterparts on Monday

Seconded, and would add that Brandon Bee is a helpful chappie also.

Think you are being a bit harsh on the U.K. Promoters Alan. You have to remember that the majority of stadia where Speedway is staged, the clubs are tenants at the mercy of their landlords. Where Speedway shares the facilities with others (Greyhounds, Football, Stockcars, etc.), if you were to restrict all EL racing to one specific day of the week, it is likely that some clubs would not be able to run outwith their current raceday. The difficulties are compounded by the highly restrictive planning laws in the UK which often limit location, running times, and actual days. These restrictions also hinder youth development. Unlike other countries where Speedway is encouraged by their authorities (including financial assistance, UK Officialdom sometimes appears to be on a witch hunt to exterminate the sport here. Operating in such a hostile climate, it is no secret that most Promoters are in it for the love of the sport and subsidise its running. Rather than consolidate on a single race day, I wonder if the EL clubs will instead forego the top level foreigners and cut their cloth accordingly.

Re Darvel, as far as I'm aware not sure if there were any practice facilities in that area. I believe they practised on the beach. Felton held organised closed to the public meetings, and programmes were printed.