Gresham

How much time practicing on a bike regularly do those abroad get compared to those in the UK? I understand there are many tracks abroad where you can still rock up and practice pretty much most days. Open to correction on that, but there certainly used to be. Where can you do that in the UK on a regular basis?

From what I can see, the biggest problem is actually starting out in speedway in this Country. Compared to Moto X, speedway is much harder. It's more specialised, and less accessible. So many Moto x tracks in this country compared to speedway tracks you can train at. How do Moto x get planning so easily compared to Speedway? Or is it not tried? What's the actual cost to produce a training track on say some farmers field in the middle of nowhere? Would the likes of Poland, Russia, Czech Republic, Australia, USA, France, Germany etc, have as many restrictions in place for people to practice on. Was reading somewhere recently, that one family in Germany had built a speedway track for their kids to train on, that was on land at the back of their garden.

Awful crash I was involved in early in my career... Local derby between Sunningdale wildcats and Highworth Hawks. A rider ( J. Bull ) made a flyer of a start, but I was right behind him through turns 1 and 2....chased him fast down the back straight and we flew in to turn 3. That's when it all went wrong...J Bulls flare caught in his chain, causing him to fall forward. Balls slammed against frame...ouch...eye watering. The front wheel lost grip on the track surface ( gravel ) and down he went...in an instant I felt and watched as my front wheel rode over his head...then the bottom axel hitting his forhead...a sickening thud. Knocked unconcious...blood everywhere. He came round...and we all cycled back to my mums. She patched him up, picking grit out of grazed knees and hands...he looked like something out of Star Wars with the big lump growing like a duck egg on his forehead. His mother was more angry than upset at the holes in the knees of his jeans...we were all at it again the following day after school though...Speedway develops hard men ;-)

When you call it 'pipe dreams' and harebrain' ideas, then what else do you expect. I don't work in Speedway closely enough to give answers to everything. Nothing wrong with putting ideas forward. Like I said...of course it will cause upheaval and cost to start with...but something has to be done. It wasn't long ago that a promotor was discussing sealed engines in the SS. Can't remember who it was though. I'm really not bothered about what Riders, Mechanics or tuners think....they are stuck in their ways and resistant to change. The Power needs to come back to the Clubs....for the long term good of the sport. If it means losing some riders...so be it. But I'm pretty damn sure there will be riders who would welcome lower costs and no tuning costs like there are now. If it got to a point where Clubs owned the engines, and supplied them to the riders at meetings, and riders were paid to ride for the club at a reduced wage, but with no running costs incurred for them, apart from rolling chassis, then I can see a better future. How we get to that point, would take many changes...lots of questions and answers, which there is no point me giving an answer to, because I don't work in the sport. It's pretty much the same for anyone commenting on this forum about speedway, and who has never ridden...most of us haven't got a clue to how it is for a rider or promotor...we can guess, and speak to them in conversation...but until you walk in that mans shoes, you can't really give a proper view point. Non the less...we can still engage in debate, even if it may seem easier said than done.

I think we are already at that point...Woffinden recently came out and said at the top level, the riders ability is pretty much the same, it's just who's got the set up right on the night that wins. You make some very valid points which I agree on.

It's impossible to debate with you because you keep coming out with the same rhetoric. You say people don't want to ride Jawa...I gave Jawa as an example, because GM need a tuner to build the engines, they come in parts. You can buy JAWA assembled at factory. I've asked you two questions which you haven't answered...yet you want me to put flesh on the bones. As I've said...I've not got the answers. I've got the ideas...the people in the sport who run it, would have a better idea of how to implement the ideas. You mention team GB...we won't have a team GB if we carry on at the present rate. Why do you think the speedway media is full of Promotors making quotes about the state of tracks and the compatibility of the engines with them? For fun? They see it's not working. So you bring in another engine...what happens next...the riders start to fiddle with them and find more speed....and so the spiral starts again. I accuse you of living in a dream world...because you say you see the problems, yet you are not willing to find ways of making changes work. Instead you just find ways of it not working. Perhaps you can give some insight as to how speedway can survive for the future, instead of being so negative.

With respect...I think you are missing the point completely. British speedway is dying. When the Chairman of the BSPA and other Promotors are now saying things like 'there will be no more speedway soon'...then you have to do something drastic to make it work. Why would developing a two valve engine be more practical or cost effective, over sealing a standard engine that's already being manufactured? Why not approach a company like JAWA who are behind GM? I'm sure they would love to get on board and provide engines to a British League. Isn't it time, we took the bull by the horns and stop worrying about Poland and top foreign riders? Surely it's time to say, enough is enough. Be drastic...be different. Change for the better. Sod Poland and Sweden. They will eventually end up the way of the UK...so many riders not being paid contracts they are being promised. So many riders not getting rides they were promised. Almagamate the Prem and Elite leagues. Get enough fixture for the riders to make a living. Make it so they don't have to ride abroad as well. Make fixtures on a weekend or Friday. If riders have to have a second job during the week...so be it. It happens with National League riders still. People will say...'but what about all the top riders?'....there won't be any top riders soon...as the Sport cannot continue in the same vein...there just isn't the money, sponsorship, or following for it to survive...the economics do not add up...it's glaringly obvious for many to see, apart from the dreamers who think Speedway is ok as it is now. At least Promotors are starting to make the right noises.

Of course there will be difficulties to be addressed...hard ones, but lets at least try to address them. No point me or anyone on here trying to find a solution as there are far better qualitied people in the sport that can do it. I totally agree what you say about the riders wanting to find a competitive edge...perhaps they need re educating. 'Let your skill on the bike do the talking, not the skill in the tuners garage' should be the motto. The Gerhard may reduce costs slightly, but they are meant to cost a lot more in the outset. I really don't understand why it is that hard not to do a deal with someone like JAWA, who could sponsor the leagues with engines at a reduced cost, and supply engines as standard and sealed, and allow Clubs through the bspa to pay in instalments. Riders would be paid less than they are now, but they wouldn't have the costs of tuning and servicing the bikes. The money saved in wages could be put toward the upkeep of the engines and replacements when necessary. No engine would be the same, but tolerances between each engine that is standard, are within reason. Lots can be drawn for engines supervised of course. It seems a fair system to me. Plus you are taking away the power from the riders who imo, have too much say in the sport as it stands.

Mate...i'm not being funny...but Speedway has run successfully for years, and run engines on all different shape tracks. It's only in recent years that it's advanced to individual tastes to such a degree. Just because riders don't ride Jawa's now, it doesn't mean they couldn't in the future. We've let speedway develop to how it is now, and the people who run the sport at the top are now questioning it. You can throw a thousand and one reasons as to why it wouldn't work...we can all find excuses for no change. Change has to be found...for the future of the sport. If you can't see that, then I really don't see why not, especially as the people who run it, are now crying out. All the questions you ask are hypothetical based on how Speedway is run now, and the mentality it has now. That all has to change...it may mean riders having their noses put out of joint...but tough. No rider is bigger than the sport. I was speaking to a riders sponsor today, and he told me he was thinking of walking away from speedway as costs are just not justified. He said he's spoken to other sponsors and they feel the same way. Unfortunately, Speedway will die if it continues in the same vein, and there will be people like yourself who will say...'we couldn't or wouldn't change because it couldn't be done'....all whilst sitting on your comfy sofa reminiscing about the good ol days....no offence, but it does my head in when people are so resistant to change and constantly putting out so called reasons why anything couldn't work.

Agenda...what Agenda? I don't dismiss his comments, I purely don't think it will make any difference as different tyre compounds and manufacturers have been tried many times over the years....as others have also noted in this thread. When Rosco is talking negatively about the engines as well as Chapman this week, where he quotes..' No wonder crowds are going away, The bikes can't handle this type of grip. They can't run at the lower power. I don't want to say any more because i'll get into trouble...the riders won't have a job soon' ...you stand up and take notice. As for restricting bikes power...it's not rocket science. You seal the engines and run on standardised equipment with a + or - % tolerance. You get someone like JAWA to produce them for the Leagues. Sealed engines, lots drawn for engines at meetings, and then fitted into riders own rolling chassis. Yes it would mean a massive change. Yes...riders wouldn't have a set up personalised exactly as it is now in engine preference. But they would have to change and deal with it, for the future of the Sport. What Sport runs engines that are too powerful for the surface they race on? Which is what has happened now. When does it stop? So you let it continue, getting faster and faster with less control and unpredictability? You let the costs spiral...the racing becomes a farce as the bikes can't race on anything less than perfect for those engines. It's a spiral out of control, which you seem quiet happy to let develop and not find a reason to say 'No...Stop'. Why would it effect racing, being a couple seconds slower if need be? If Speedway can reduce running costs, then they should. Promotors are starting to speak up now, as they realise it's gone to far and needs to stop. Why Chapman thinks he will get into trouble for speaking his mind is a worry though. What's stopping him. Too many fingers in too many pies imo.

Technology has indeed moved on...producing ever more powerful engines, producing ridiculous amounts of Revs, on the limit of breaking point, engines that need to be serviced after very few laps...of course PJR are going to say that, it's in his interest. I'd point you in the direction of his website, and what he recommends for looking after an engine, it's ridiculous when you read it...but it seems he's let his domain name expire, so his site is down. As for tyres being less grippy, that is the most stupid thing I've ever read from an engine tuner. Riders are constantly manoeuvreing their body shape on the bike, fighting to find more traction, as like Tai Woffinden said recently, it's like driving a car on marbles. Engines need to be less powerful and have more restriction on them, as they have now outgrown most speedway tracks and surfaces.

Bob Coles on this vid...happened straight in front of me... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrwVlFEmvKA

It's the high revs, the back wheel spins so fast, it almost needs a perfect track to get traction. Notice how much a rider in turns 2 and 4 has to lean over, but push the bike out with his arms to keep it more upright, often with the right leg off the peg....all because the rear wheel needs to find more traction....otherwise it just turns 360. The Sport is out of control. at least with F1 they real things back in...Speedway has just been led by the manufacturers and tuners.

I read a interview the other day with Tai Woffinden, where he said bikes were very hard to control these days and they were very often just hanging on. So if the world champion is saying he is just hanging on and has less control, what does that say about our sport? He mentioned that it was like driving a car on marbles.

So we have a Poole Promotor that wants to bring in approx. 25 home meetings in per season. One home meeting a week. How many of them are going to get rained off at first attempt or even second attempt? How is it possible to run a bigger fixture list in a season, with the bikes we have, with the weather conditions common to Britain? What percentage of rain off's have we had this season? Imo, it's the amount of rain offs we have, and the irregularity of speedway meetings being on, that is the problem...as people get fed up of travelling miles only to be told it's off. I personally enjoyed seeing riders battle the elements as well as one another. Perhaps that's why County Cricket, Lawn Tennis and Speedway suffer falling attendances...because they can't deal with the normal conditions of the Country we live in.

.... right...this is not me slagging off speedway before certain people start. It's trying to understand a mentality in speedway, that I really can't get my head around. We all know Speedway is susceptible to the elements, and it's hard to race in wet conditions...always has been. So in this weeks SS we have a bit of a Rant by Rosco... who imo, speaks a lot of truth the majority of the time. In reference to a recent meeting being abandoned because of the weather... He Quotes about fans moaning... ''They are so quick to complain about the riders, but the bikes have changed so much. Well I was fortunate to have ridden lay downs and know exactly what they are like. I totally get it because they are so unpredictable. The characteristics of the bikes are so different. At Kings lynn it is grippy going into a bend, then turns 'icy'...all you do is a 360. An upright bike could control that, these days they are so unpredictable...you can't say...back in the day'' So knowing full well tracks are open to the elements and rain iis most certain in most countries....why have we allowed a sport to develop bikes that can't race on the slightest bit of rain? It's not rocket Science is it? All seems to me, that it is the Engine tuners and developers that run this sport...done in a way to make more money. Any thoughts?

Probably the same way Jason Crump was born in Bristol but chose to ride for Australia... Probably the same reason why there are a multitude of sportsmen and women, born in various Countries, but represent other Countries to whom they have relations with via relationships from their direct family. The English Cricket side was nearly all South African at one point...or so it seemed. It's normal in most sports...hence why I don't get all the Tai bashing.

Slightly odd...no one has mentioned the word 'Fight'. And it's 'Oh'...not 'ow'. No point talking as you are missing the real point of my posts. Yes...many times. The people you are referring to are the one's that queue up all day...not the type with money i'm talking about. Clearly my posts are lost on you. I've got no problem at all...it's the same old people who like picking fights with whoever. A very vocal minority. It's my turn today apparently. It doesn't bother me though, as I'd have to respect their opinion to be bothered. I don't respect them, as I've seen how they are in many threads. Trolls who like an argument and twist threads to suit. As you can see in the aforementioned...both are rather odd people...they add words to quotes that aren't there, or try to manipulate posts to start an argument. They do it all the time...attacking posters rather than the post. It's hardly fair trying to have a conversation with people when you find out there are mental issues and medication involved. It's a lose lose situation.

No not at all. I find it hard to have any decent conversation on here with some, as it seems some just don't read a post as intended. People have various experiences at meetings...if fans have never heard what I've heard, then that's their experience. Mine is totally different. I've taken people to various meetings all around the country...and MY experience is that the people who I've taken have all mentioned the 'Speedway look'. Yes a great majority are 'normal'...but it only takes 20 odd or so, to stand out like a sore thumb in a crowd of maybe 400, and that's what they remember. It's not the norm to wear Garish Wulf Sport jackets, carry Programme boards, wear T shirts emblazoned with pictures of speedway riders, and the odd one's who still wear jackets covered in patch's and badges with year bars down to their navel. As others have said on the first page of this discussion...it is all a bit odd and 'different'. It really doesn't bother me...but like I keep trying to get over....as a promotor, who do you promote too? What type of person? Your average guy that follows Speedway is often very down to earth, salt of the earth types, working class sorts. With very little disposable income compared to other sports followers. Speedway as far as I can see, is trying to be like the big boys of motor sport where finance and sponsorship is far more available. Imo...Speedway is a 'Garden shed' sport...not like many mainstream motor sports. The money is with the 'Prawn sandwich brigade and such like. Is Speedway attractive to them? Those that attend the likes of Wimbledon, Silverstone, Lords, Twickers, Henley, Cheltenham etc....do you think those type of people would be attracted to Speedway? Those with more of a disposable income and who expect more from a night out. Having experienced 'packages' at Speedway meetings....they are far removed from other sporting events.

I suppose it depends who you bring to the meeting. I've heard it from everyone I've ever taken to Speedway, on numerous occasions, who'd never been before. People who follow or play other sports, like Rugby, Tennis, Skiing, Cricket and F1. But again...looks like people are looking to pick a fight and argue, rather than actually see the point being made about who to Promote the sport too....rolls eye's in disappointment. As for me bringing 'Darts' into the conversation...I suggest that person reads the thread, as it wasn't me who introduced 'Darts' into the topic of conversation. It was used in replying to the person who brought it up. Like someone else said...would love him to represent me in a murder case, has a great ability in twisting threads, and making people believe something else. Say it enough...and people start to believe. Plus never agree to disagree or say you're wrong....recipe for a successful defence I reckon...very skilful....wasted on here lol

There's no need to be like that...of course, not everyone says it...but I've never heard anything positive said about Speedway and the 'attire' associated with it...and it is something that I've heard numerous times at speedway meetings from people new to the sport. The fact people wouldn't bring a Girlfriend to a meeting, because they wouldn't want her to judge, says something. whether that's shallow or right or wrong...it is what it is. In fact, it has been noted by certain Speedway promotions. At Somerset for example, they realised it had to be changed, and brought more in line with what is considered 'normal' and less garish. They brought in someone especially to change the line of Speedway attire. So it's not a fallacy...it's something that has been noted by others and acted on. The point I was trying to make in my initial post, was 'who do you promote' the sport to for the future? The Speedway and Darts fan seem very similar. What 'Image' is speedway trying to portray? Who are they marketing towards? Personally, I don't think the expense and expenditure of running speedway, coincides with the fan base, and the surplus cash a great majority of fans have at their disposal. It, imo, is a very working class sport with a very 'amateur' family feel, run like a circus event. Nothing wrong with that. However...Speedway is trying to be something it's not. Expensive, and in line with other motor sports, with far more affluence. The two don't go hand in hand at the moment, imo. Small issues in the bigger picture of things...but never the less an issue worth considering.

I suppose that is addressed at me, as it was me who quoted it. Why so aggressive? The person who said it, didn't mean it in a derogatory way. It was referring to the filling in of programmes and looking at who could possibly ride next, depending on score. The closest I can think to that is filling in a cricket scorecard whilst at a county game or standing on a station platform writing down numbers. Plus there is nothing wrong with 'Geekness'...it has it's place. As for attire...I would have to disagree with you. I don't know where you live, but if I walked down my street, I wouldn't see people in garish coloured 'Speedway clothing' or carrying programme boards. I sat in a few bars at the Cardiff GP, and overheard many general public mention the attire of the Speedway fans. None of it was positive. I've even had people say to me...'I wouldn't bring my Girlfriend here'. Because of how people looked. Now that maybe shallow...and I agree. I'd also say the Darts fan was very similar. Fat blokes...cheering on even fatter blokes whilst wearing silly outfits lol Nothing to do with the older generation, who I personally think look very normal at Speedway. This is why I mentioned in my post, that I'd find it hard to decide who to Promote the Sport too if I was a promotor. Can't see many Rugby, Cricket, F1, Tennis, Golf types being interested...although I know a few including myself. Burgers, chips and Garish polyester clothing is fine...but if you want to attract more money and a different clientele then you have to be aware of your product and how it is viewed by the general public. For me...I love the oddness of it all :-)

Some interesting points being made in this thread...one that stands out for me, is the type of person that follows Speedway. It's definitely unique. As someone who has followed speedway for 40 years, you get used to it and it goes over your head. Having taken people recently, that are new to the sport, and had watched it through fresh new eyes, it was interesting to hear their comments. Some of the best...'It's like watching racing surrounded by Train spotters'....'WTF are they wearing?' Filling in programmes was also noticed. A friend laughed and said after each race, it was like watching a group of Japanese or pigeons all bowing their head in unison looking at their programmes. lol Their is definitely a 'Geek' element about it. How many people who watch actually ride bikes or are interested in bikes...I'd guess a small minority. Most other sports have some form of connection between the sport and fan base. Speedway seems different in that respect. I go...I think...because it brings back good memories from the past, and I'm used to it. If I was a promotor, I think I'd struggle to attract new fans....or where to tap into. It's not for the 'biker' types....even though a great majority of general public think it is....and it's not really for the general sporting public, like Rugby, cricket or football...exceptions to that rule I know, including myself. One thing...the people...salt of the earth types, who would do anything for you. Generally lovely people...although you wouldn't believe it after reading the 'Tai thread'. For me...I have the fondest memories from Speedway before the mid 90's. I loved it, it was my passion. After that, it's been an intermittent love affair. This season I have embraced the changes...it is what it is. You still get good racing from brave talented lads...it's still a thrill to watch. It's just best to ignore all the crap, rules and regs etc. I find they make me feel despondent and less likely to go...as do rain offs. Fantastic sport though...that has a family feel, but run more like a circus.

My apologies...I meant to quote Sommelier and not yourself....my mistake.

Guessing you're not a fan of BWD...any reason for that fella? I find him great to watch and he's keen as mustard to race and get stuck in. I was watching the tapes last night. Stood pretty much directly in front of them, apex of first bend. It was really noticeable how loose they were. The middle of the tapes, seemed to hang there way much longer than normal when being released.