Gresham

Good question...I'd suggest as an Amateur you would buy an engine like a basic JAWA comes now. Plus in the interim, there would be plenty of used engines around that riders would want to sell on. Riders that break into the sport wouldn't be riding for teams straight away. They would have to do their time developing in Grasstrack and National League. I'd suggest National League could be run similar to now. But still trying to find a way of keeping costs down. Riders moving up a league after development would be able to sell their equipment on to the next generation of riders. Anyone taking up the sport would have to fork out to start with, but it doesn't have to be silly money. Plus the NL should only be seen by promotors as a development league...not for certain riders to try and make a living in. Purely development. I'm not saying it wouldn't have problems, but so many seem to want to find ways of it not working, rather than looking at ways of making it work. Lets face it...when a rider breaks into the sport, if he gets a team birth anywhere...he sells a lot of his equipment on and 'upgrades' again so as to compete. So it wouldn't make any difference.

And it's that sort of thinking that is killing this sport. With respect...you haven't touched on the issue of reducing engine and running costs. you can't just say...'if you can't afford it...tough'. Speedway has hardly got any riders as it is.

You don't allow the rider to take the engine out...or it's supervised. If every rider had that mentality, then it would eventually catch up with them. A different way of thinking has to occur. Damage an engine...then you damage your livelihood. You do a deal of exclusivity. Paid in instalments. It doesn't need to be JAWA, but they are the only manufacturer I know that produce engines, assembled straight from the factory and have the means to do it. Call it the Premier 'JAWA' league or whatever...with Sky TV, they would love the exposure I'm sure. Make it a long term contract and it's worth their while. The riders pay would come down considerably. More would be gone towards buying 'Club Engines'...the rider would not have the cost of buying engines or maintaining them. A good percentage of riders costs go on this. Don't look at GP riders as examples...but your average Club rider. It's a different world for them. Plus more and more riders aren't getting paid by Clubs. So many are owed money. When you speak to mechanics and riders alike, or their sponsors, you hear the real story and not what you are led to believe in the media...it's far worse than many think. There will always be if's and but's...unfortunately the people who have been involved in Speedway for many years, the majority of the BSPA, have become blinkered and will always find a reason not to change. The sooner these people are out of speedway, the better...they are ruining Club Speedway, as they are so set in their ways. The younger Generation of Promotors will, I believe, have the courage to change...as they can see outside the box and the problems we have now. It's a bit like the BREXIT vote...people voted for change, but there was no policy in place as to how it will work. You sometimes just have to find ways of making it to work for the better, and overcome the obstacles, instead of continually finding reasons not to change. Of course there would be hiccups...but it can't be any worse than it is now. Club Speedway is struggling...the average rider struggles to survive. Why keep doing the same thing over and over again, when it's clear to see it isn't working?

Poland has moved on...there is no way GB can compete now. The only way Club Speedway can grow in this country, is if they go down a completely different route to what is the norm now. Basically start again. You need to take away the expense of buying bikes and tuning from the individual riders. BSPA needs to do a deal with the likes of JAWA...where Clubs own the engines. Or there is a big pot that the clubs pay in to, to finance buying the engines. A big problem is mixing Club Speedway with Individual Speedway. They should be two different concerns. Standardised limited engines that aren't highly tuned and on breaking point, owned by the Clubs or BSPA, that are built to last and have little up keep compared to now. The engines kept in racing condition by mechanics employed by the Clubs or BSPA. These are what should be used in Club Speedway. That way riders can be paid accordingly. They will have less outlay in service and tuning costs and in buying engines. The only outlay for them, being their Individual rolling chassis. Why pay money to riders, where they are spending it on engines and tuning being used in Individual events for their own concerns, not the Clubs? If riders want to ride in Individual events, then that's their concern, and it's up to them to finance it or find sponsors and build their own bikes for those events. Yes it's a big change...but plodding along tinkering with the rules every season isn't going to help. Club speedway in this country needs a big shake up and change in the way it's run. Clubs and the Promotors need to take back more control and take the power back from some of the big hitting riders. I'd be very happy to see no GP riders race Club speedway in this Country. They are a complete drain. And are far removed from the majority of the other riders in their team. Start again...create Club riders...not riders that are focussing on Individual gains. Personally I'd like to see two different codes created. Individual Speedway riders....and Club Speedway riders. Where you either do one or the other. No way could that happen in it's present form...but speedway has allowed it to develop over it's history to how it is now. This is why it's become so hard to change.

I really like watching James race. I would have loved to have see him ride for Somerset this season. He gives his all, and is very entertaining to watch. He certainly looks like a rider who is going to improve. If fans can see beyond the 'winning' at all costs attitude, and see other factors that make Speedway entertaining, then as a Poole fan you will enjoy watching him every week. I'm jealous of Poole for capturing James...more so than any other of their riders.

Nail on head...and exactly why Speedway is broken as a sport that can prosper. And here is your answer. How anyone can't see that tighter regulations are needed is beyond me. As Mac101 pointed out...Speedway bikes are completely different, depending on which rider is riding them. Too much allowance is allowed in riders making the bike 'personal' to them. All riders looking for that edge....constantly tinkering to find the right 'set up' that feels right for them. Just stop it. All you need are four standard bikes...and four riders in each race. Just bloody go and race them, instead of trying to adapt the bike to suit the individual. The Individual should be trying to adapt to ride the bike. Simple. The sooner engines are 'standardised' with tighter regulations the better.

Yes I have...maybe you need to read that quote again. 'speedway engines from the brand GM are getting tuned and prepared for racing'. Obviously an older website.

Thanks for pointing that out Phillip...my mistake. Developed by Suter and Gerhard then... http://www.gerhard-engines.com/home/

Correct me if I am wrong...but I was under the impression that Gerhard Engines, were just GM engines that had been tuned by Gerhard, and not 'new' engines manufactured by Gerhard? His website also states... Engines In our own workshop in Frauenfeld (Switzerland), speedway engines from the brand GM are getting tuned and prepared for racing. Each individual step in the working process is carefully planned and executed with the utmost diligence. Only highest quality materials and components are used in this process. The goal of Gerhard-Racing is not only to produce the fastest but also the most durable engines on the market. Typical Swiss values such as high quality, precision and reliability are contributing to a world-class engine made by Marcel Gerhard. The ultimate goal is to win speedway races. But this is only possible if the rider can fully rely on his engine in every situation. Therefore, Marcel Gerhard puts all emphasis on the details while working on the engines. Service In addition to the delivery of new engines, Gerhard-Racing is also offering a regular maintenance service to extended product life cycle. These services usually take place within a reasonable time interval, and will also be performed with the highest precision and reliability.

I answered those questions in my later post Phillip. It would need all those who work in Speedway, to stop and take stock. They have to look outside of the speedway bubble they have created. It isn't working...tinkering here and there every season doesn't/hasn't worked. It needs a complete overhaul, and from people outside of the current crop of older Promotors and influential ex riders who have been part of that bubble. They only see what they have created. Speedway needs to start again. Forget about much of it's history. It needs to start from scratch. The question that needs to be asked is...'if we were to create a new club sport from scratch, with no previous example...how would we create speedway as a sport, that is viable in this day and age?' You have to start again...from the bottom up. A complete restructuring throughout and mindset. That's why the Clubs or governing bodies need to own the engines. The riders mind set would also need to change. Why do they think this way now? If you said to all the GP riders, you are all riding on the same equipment provided by us...why would they complain? Are they not confident in their own ability as a Speedway rider, to use there skills to win a race, rather than having to win the race in the workshop? Would you not have more respect for winning, because you won because of your racing skills...not your tuning skills? Even the top riders have quoted, that it's down to who has tuned the best that week leading up to a meeting. How mental is that....what right thinking person thinks that's normal and something to be proud of. How can the people that run the sport, not see that is a strange mindset? Maybe it's because there are many influential people outside of riding, that can make a good living from the riders and how they run Speedway. That's my gut instinct.

I totally agree....however I do think it could happen, it's just because of how Speedway is at the moment, that people find ways of it not working. If the BSPA said that was the way they wanted it to go, they could tender out to a manufacturer, like JAWA, GM etc as to who has the 'rights' to provide those engines. That league called 'JAWA Premier League' etc. The Clubs could find a way of paying for these engines over a monthly basis. Riders wages would be reduced accordingly. Give them a wage that they live on...like the rest of us. Not a wage that is spent on engines etc. If they have to have another job....then so be it. Riders can have their own rolling chassis, clutch etc....but the engines are secured by the club. Riders would have to adjust to this way...and not compare it to how it is nowadays...it would have to be a complete overhaul. If it means losing some....so be it. Let them do what they bloomin want in Individual meetings...if they want to waste their money chasing their tails, then more fool them.

Reading this thread is doing my head in...it's apparent how we've all been sucked in to the 'Speedway way'. It's just ruining the sport. Constantly tinkering with the engines and set ups, trying to find an edge over your opponent. The majority of winning is done at the tuners before the racing has ever begun. It's won or lost depending on who has tuned their bike the best that week. How ridiculous in the bigger picture is that. The majority of riders are at a level, that the only difference between them, is the bike they sit on. Money just being wasted on tinkering....trying to find that edge. Speedway really does need to stop this. Rev limiters aren't the answer. The answer lies in finding a way of not allowing riders and tuners near the engines during the week. Why does Speedway need the riders and tuners fiddling with the engines? It doesn't. Speedway should be about four riders racing on engines that haven't been modified in any way. Factory set and regulated. Speedway has got set in it's way of riders trying to out do one another off the track. And this is where Speedway has shot itself in the foot, by letting this happen throughout history. Riders have got used to this...it's how they see the sport. Tinkering to find the best set up for them....what they prefer. The only way speedway can reduce costs...is by cutting out the tuners and tinkering. Stick the damn engine in, set your clutch and gearing, and just ride the damn thing. What paying supporter gives a damn as to what a tuner or rider has done to an engine?

Stop talking sense... ;-)

I concur with all of your observations...even if it was free admission, after an initial peak, I believe the great majority would stop coming, just like so many who have paid in the past. Times have moved on and people want and expect more. To have returning fans each week, you need them to get hooked. To actually immerse themselves in the sport and understand it. After a while, watching four blokes going round in circles gets boring, unless you actually immerse yourself in the finer details. Speedway is so confusing and different to pretty much all other sports. The majority of Clubs don't own their 'stadiums'. Many tracks are not purpose built and just fit around something else, which isn't condusive to good racing. Apart from the racing, entertainment has pretty much been neglected. Offering chips and hot dogs doesn't cut it these days. Higher end hospitality is very poor standard... any potential sponsors with money would expect better. Then you have the problem of rain off's...we live in a Country where it rains a lot. How Clubs expect people to keep wasting their money and keep an interest is beyond me. I can't think of one motor sport that's effected by the weather so much. Speedway is confusing to the newcomer...it's neither a team sport or an individual sport. You have teams with riders who all ride for other teams. Those riders also provide their own machinery. Those teams are also effected by what a rider is doing in 'individual' events. You now have 'Red Bull' teams and 'JAWA' teams etc...like in Road racing...I could go on....the sport is so mixed up, it has no idea which way it's going... it's mental. Even if you do get interested and hooked...you end up frustrated, because everything you read is so negative. Read this, the star, social media, and it's just a raft of negativity and problems. Speedway imo, needs a complete overhaul...it needs to forget some certain traditions and start again. Either become an Individual sport...or purely a team sport. Or....make it so that riders can only be in one 'code'.

But when those players come on, they can influence a game to score a goal...but they don't get two. I'm all for tactical Subs...but double points is just plain stupid by most peoples sense.

I really can't see how putting someone like Zach in at number 7 is going to help him or anyone under the present system. All well and good if the structure was different.

I agree on many of those points...but I think Speedway and many other sports struggle, because of 'society' and the paying publics 'need' to be successful and win at costs all the time. When I see and read about fans going home after the 'main event' and not bothering to support a second half or the novice racers, for me it reflects society. It's the same in football...everyone supports their club....but in fact they don't....the majority support the first team. They have no interest in the Academy or the youngsters. Hence, they get few opportunities to get into the first team and develop. The Clubs end up spending £millions in bringing in tried and tested foreign players. The same happens in speedway. British novice riders get very little help in developing...and most 'fans' don't support them or are interested. Society is fickle....they have to follow something that's successful and wins. Say's more about them as people tbh...something obviously missing in their life. What difference in your life does it make if you are a Poole fan for example....over someone who follows Buxton? Surely as fans of speedway or any sport....it's the sport not the success that makes you happy? Seeing four riders race in the National League and seeing riders develop is just as exciting, if not more, than watching the 'finished article' racing in the GP's or for the elite league title? Someone in an earlier post mentioned that their friends followed football, and that it was purely the result that counted...not the entertainment. How fecked up is that? Society wants to win...even if it's not entertaining...at all costs. How small minded have we become? What difference does it make in peoples lives? Do wolves fans actually wake up every morning....feeling so much better than every other fan in the country? If they do...they need to get a friggin life imo. Speedway and many other sports, suffer because of this mind set. If Speedway tried to do the right thing...and tried to develop riders into teams, without 'doubling up'...you can bet 'fans' would moan because it's not competitive. It's a catch 22...speedway and other sports can't win....because of the 'expectation' of success over Entertainment by a great majority of the fans. If only fans had a mentality of 'so what if we lost...it was entertaining, and good to see all the riders trying their best'.

I'm not sure whether this has been covered in another post...but the 'doubling up'...surely is just a way to allow certain riders to make a living, if they are not riding abroad? With the costs of running speedway bikes...is it possible for a rider to make a living, riding for just one team in this country? What also crossed my mind, regarding doubling up...how would it work if the two play off teams for promotion and relegation next season, were in a similar situation to what Swindon and Somerset were this season? If Swindon had finished bottom and Somerset had to race them for Promotion, how would that work? Who would ride for what team? How could you bring in other riders to replace the double ups without making a farce of the sport?

Unfortunately yes....I join the M5 at Aztec West roundabout from the Thornbury road. It's a nightmare every Friday. No way of avoiding traffic for me I'm afraid. And for others. I know some people who don't go anymore, purely because of the Friday night traffic.

That would be a team I'd love to watch race every week. I've asked this question before, but with no reply from anyone...'why do Somerset race on a Friday night?' Is there a reason, or a reason why they cannot race on any other evening? Friday evenings, are the worst possible time of the week to negotiate getting to Somerset's track.

Can see everything going up in price...parking, entrance fee, programme, drinks...will the entertainment be any better? I hope it doesn't and I hope it's just as entertaining. Fair play to the Promotors for trying to make Speedway sustainable for the future...just hope it works and every promotor plays within the spirit of the rules, and doesn't go looking for loop holes. Can see some funny goings on until the first proper averages come out. I don't know how I feel about Somerset being promoted tbh... I stopped going to watch Swindon because I found Elite league racing boring...whilst the Prem was exciting...and 'real'. I'm really not bothered about seeing GP riders. I'll remain open to the idea and see for myself and judge then.

The intentions seem to want to bring the two leagues closer together in racing standard and in expenses. If it works, then I'm all for that. I hope all promotors will not try to find loop holes to jump through, when team building throughout the season, and try to do things in the spirit that the new rules have been set out. Thinking of the sport in general, rather than winning at all costs. Long term sustainability is needed, not short term success. Glad to see them also looking at reducing engine costs and maybe doing a 'deal' with an engine manufacturer...either Gerhard...or maybe JAWA, as has been 'suggested?' The block on Belle Vue can only be a good thing...as it will stop any further money problems. It seems like they have a Promotion in the wings looking to take over? Trying to work out how the average x1.4 is going to work, once riders averages find their own level. This could be the biggest problem and open to taking advantage.

As there is no Promotion and relegation... would it not be prudent as a Promotor of a Club, to do some market research with the fan base who regularly pay to watch the speedway at their track, as to what League they would prefer to see their team racing in?

In your opinion. When I compare racing in general from what I've watched, the PL is far more entertaining than the EL. I'm glad you and others enjoy the EL...it's just my personal choice and preference. Did you get to many live EL meetings or PL meetings yourself? What did you find as a whole experience at the track was better? I don't watch speedway on TV, so couldn't give you a perspective from that point of view.