lucifer sam

I would be interested to know where Waikeace has Batch ranked for 2014. There were times during that season when he actually performed. Batch of 2015 was almost universally cr*p. When they are demolishing the Abbey and wondering who that bloke still going round the track is, it's Batch completing his final ride of the Swindon v BV play-off match. Although one point is that Batch followed up with 20 points in Denmark with 3 (?) at Cardiff. Whereas JD was a consistent performer in every round of the World Championship of 1980. Hence his presence in the final. All the best Rob

Off the top of my head. And it was one of the biggest 12 individual meetings in the world that year e.g. the equivalent of a Grand Prix. He had an outstanding year. It would be interesting to see the list of riders he beat on the World Championship trail - Olsen, Autrey and Mauger at the ICF for starters. Again off the top of my head. Ironically you've picked the one year that JD really was World Class. All the best Rob

OK, we'll run with it, if you like. John Davis won the 1980 Daily Express Spring Classic. The meeting had terrestrial television coverage, and contained a World Class line-up. After World Championship rounds, the Internationale and the British League Riders' Championship, it was the biggest date on the calendar. It had been running since 1973, and with regular TV coverage, had quickly become a prestigious meeting. He also scored 9 points in the World Final. He actually had the beating of Michael Lee in his final outing, but decided he didn't want to get in the way of the new champion, and dutifully finished second behind him. All the best Rob

It can, although there's a strong chance that Penhall would have won a Grand Prix series has it be held in 1980, 1981 and 1982. My own personal hunch is that Dave Jessup (if he could have kept the number of e/fs down!!) or Michael Lee would have just edged out Penhall across 1980, but Penhall would have triumphed in both 1981 and 1982. Domestically, Kenny Carter had the edge in 1982, but I'm not sure about internationally. Penhall was, in particular, the dominating force in 1981. I'm not sure if Greg has ever completely dominated a year, although he's certainly been the most consistent in a few. I'm going to plump for Bruce, but I appreciate it's comparing apples with oranges: the rider who achieved the most within a very short career, against a rider with incredible longevity. All the best Rob Stop making the same mistake as BWitcher. Yes, I agree with what you say, but it has nothing to do with this discussion. Who's mentioned the number of 10-point-men in 1980? Only you. All the best Rob

Don't be ridiculous. Mauger was clearly still within the best 20 riders in the world in 1980. As much as I applaud Bomber for his heroics in getting back into the GP, I doubt if Harris would be considered in the top 40 or 50. All the best Rob

And what is the relevance of the above to this thread? Absolutely nothing. You've come on here with your own pet subject that higher averages are harder to achieve in a more condescended league. Which I believe was on another thread, and indeed I backed up the point, from what I recall. The way the discussion has been developing on this thread is whether the quantity and depth of world class riders has gone up or down or stayed the same since 1980. All the best Rob PS And Mauger was still world class in 1980. He finished third in the Commonwealth Final... which might not sound much, but look at the line-up... he beat Michael Lee (World Champ that year), Peter Collins and Billy Sanders. He dragged Larry Ross along to fifth in the World Pairs (he scored the bulk of NZ's points in the comp, and his 17 points in the semi went a long way to eliminating the US pair of Penhall & Autrey). He wasn't the superlative Mauger of old, but once he got past of the worst of his health issues in the early part of the season, he still could still beat any rider in the world. It's an insult to say he simply "decent" by this time. He wasn't. He was still world class.

Yes, I'd already mentioned the 1985 British (Super) League. Again, look back, it was BWitcher who brought in averages, I believe he was recycling his argument from another thread and it wasn't entirely appropriate here when no-one had actually mentioned averages until he popped up with it. My argument was the riders that Bwitcher said could be perceived as mediocre. Let's look at the Grahame brothers. Andy Grahame won the British Final at a time that was mega-difficult to win and pushed Hans Nielsen for top spot at Birmingham in 1981 and 1982. While Alan Grahame was the rock of the so-successful Cradley Heathens. When the Heathens won the league in '81, their top scorer that season wasn't Penhall or Gundersen. It was Alan Grahame, who never missed a match. There's nothing even slightly mediocre about those sort of riders. Nothing at all. And yet I probably would call Troy Batchelor mediocre. His performance in the Swindon vs Belle Vue meeting was all the evidence you need. Compare it with the photo of Big Al from 1980, plastered head-to-toe after giving his all to triumph in the Grand Prix Final at Wimbledon. All the best Rob

No, I only disputed your description of the 9-point-men in 1980 as "mediocre", and then pointed out that Mauger (8.79) was amongst the riders around the 9.00 mark. Stop changing the discussion halfway through, because you've started to talk yourself down a cul-de-sac. All the best Rob

Nope I said: Around 5th in the EL averages on 8.00-8.50 (we all seem to agree he'd be in this ballpark) is quite a way above 7.00 and hardly "mediocre" ... and mediocre was the word that BWitcher did use for the 1980 9-point men (Mauger was 8.79 that year). All the best Rob

Had today's format been used in 1980, then yes Mauger would have been on a 7-8 point average that year. But that wasn't the argument. I argued against the fact that the Mauger of 1980 would have been "a mediocre rider" in the 2015 Elite League. That's a flight in fancy in anyone's book. Look back at any video of Mauger, the bloke has brilliant trackcraft (and I mean brilliant). Transport the 40-year-old Mauger of 1980 in a time machine to 2015 and he'd eat the likes of Troy Batchelor for breakfast. In fact, I'd say that he finished fourth in the league averages, behind Darcy, Magic and NKI. Would sort of average would that have given him? All the best Rob

I'm still going for Juicey Brucey. Only nine riders have won back-to-back titles... it's extremely hard to do. But yes it's tricky when it's not comparing like with like. All the best Rob

The highest "new entry" in 1980 was Andrzej Huszcza (6.72), a Pole in his mid-twenties who already had a fair amount of experience. Highest genuine newcomer was Shawn Moran (6.15). Although I never centred in this discussion on averages - there's too many differences between the eras. That's not the point. What was the point is the number of genuine world class riders competing across the globe and whether that number has increased or decreased, and whether therefore it was tougher to win two World Finals in 1981 and 1982 than three GPs in 1997, 2011 and 2014. All the best Rob

Agreed. And the latter is a fair point. The depth in the late 80s did drop a bit. Another factor was the number of American riders who stayed in the States, and therefore their level of performance dropped from where it would have been from having regular European league (which at this point still meant British League) competition. Around 1982, it's scary how many good American riders they were. All the best Rob Bo Petersen and either PC or Mort... er.... I'll guess Mort. All the best Rob

Phew! My list for 1980 was about right then! At this point, it comes down to subjective judgement. I would say that 1980 is superior (although not by as much as I expected it to be), but I understand people who think otherwise. I'm glad we're not looking at the mid-seventies, when I'm sure I could pick a list of British riders only comparable to the standard of the current GP series. At which point, I look at the standard of British riders now (who is your highest ranked Brit after Woffy?) and start to cry. All the best Rob Yes, I think he may have actually been 38 or 39 at that point, but another example of the number of riders who could win a "biggie" around that time. All the best Rob

Yes, you've put up a list of 15 riders who "could" win a GP. But I've listed 24 from 1980 already, and there are still riders not on that list, who could come in and whip the world's best. I've just thought of one. Les Collins. Not among the 24 riders I've listed, but won the 1980 BLRC in a field worthy of a World Final or a Grand Prix series. All the best Rob

I tried not to "cheat" and picked the riders on their level in 1979 or 1980. Hence no Erik Gundersen, Tommy Knudsen, Kenny Carter, etc. All the best Rob

Good point Colin. Turning your argument on its head for a moment, and looking at a possible 1980 Grand Prix series... The line-up could have been: Ivan Mauger Michael Lee Ole Olsen Peter Collins Dave Jessup Billy Sanders Zenon Plech Kelly Moran Jan Andersson Bruce Penhall Chris Morton Hans Nielsen Scott Autrey John Davis Phil Crump Or any of these could have been in: Bo Petersen Bobby Schwartz Gordon Kennett Dennis Sigalos Malcolm Simmons Larry Ross John Louis Edward Jancarz Finn Thomsen I've probably missed a big name or two as well. It's not possible to match that sort of list in 2015. There's no way the likes of Batchelor, THJ and although it pains me to say it (because I love watching him race) Harris, would have got near a GP series in 1980. All the best Rob

So when someone makes a statement you don't agree with they are "acting like a child"? We were having a sensible discussion until you decided to start hurling around the insults. I believe the skill level of the modern-speedway rider has slipped, probably thanks to the rocket-ship lay downs, which require the riders to hang on, rather than develop as much trackcraft. It's why I believe the ultra-skilled Woffy will clean up for a few years to come, especially when Greg & Nicki retire and if Emil doesn't see sense. All the best Rob

BWitcher, is it impossible for you to have a sensible discussion without resorting to insulting the other person? All the best Rob

Name one of those riders who couldn't complete four laps on a wet track. The current World No 12 can't. I'd argue there were probably more skilled riders than him in the National League in 1980. In fact, I know they were. I recall several meetings held at Oxford in the pouring rain and yet the riders could handle it. Unlike a 2015 Elite League No 1. All the best Rob Stop the insults - it does nothing for a meaningful debate. All the best Rob

Did I? Where exactly? All I mentioned was that nearly every World Class rider was competing in the 1980 British League. Are you really claiming that was the case in 2015? All the best Rob

The format has little to do with it. In 1980, almost every top rider in the world rode in the British League. In 2015, I'd say around a fifth of the top riders ride in the Elite League. 1980 is therefore, by definition, tougher. Another point: tactical subs. A heat leader could often spend the latter half of a meeting with some exceptionally difficult rides, if additional heat leaders were thrown in against him. And we're talking proper heat leaders. All the best Rob Modern-day Poland is different: a very, very tough league. Similar to the British (Super) League of 1985, where some very good riders ended up with some very average averages!! Put Emil in the current EL, and he'd average 11.00+ no problem. All the best Rob

But the above argument falls down when you consider the number of World Class riders in the modern day Elite League. In 1980, most of the 17 BL sides had three World class riders (it's not an exact science: some teams had one or two, others four or five). They are almost non-existent the current EL. For example, Swindon had a No 1 in the play-offs who couldn't complete four laps on a wet track. A rider like that wouldn't have been a second string in 1980, yet alone a No 1. Yes, the current EL format does pitch heat leaders against heat leaders. But when those heat leaders are weak, it's not that tough. 1980 (around 50 World class riders in BL - around three per team) No 1 rider met No 1,3 and 5 a total of five times - meets five world class riders in four outings 2015 (around 10 world class riders in EL - around one per team) No 1 rider meets opposing No 1 three times - meets three world class riders in five outings 1980 was tougher. All the best Rob

Now corrected. I'm just wondering how BWitcher reckons the current Elite League, which probably contains around 10-15 of the top 50 riders in the world is tougher than the 1980 British League, which contained around 45-48 of the top 50 riders in the world. All the best Rob

You're saying the likes of Mauger and Olsen would only be mediocre riders in the current Elite League? Really????? What are you on??? All the best Rob