lucifer sam

In terms of Sigalos v Les Collins, I agree - Sigalos was definitely ahead. I was simply pointing out both slipped back a bit after the narrower tyres came in. Sigalos is the most interesting of the "What ifs" of the top riders ruled out during the 1980s, and perhaps the one who could have given Erik and Hans their hardest run for their money (although IMO they would have still been ahead - the signs are already there in '83). Although not in 1984, because even had his ankle been OK after his American Final fall, Siggy was out of contention with just 4 points from 3 rides. It is an interesting "What If"?

If you're going by success, it's strange you include a one-time World Champion Tommy Price, but not his immediate successor Freddie Williams, who was a two-time champion - indeed Williams is one of only three multiple British World Champions. Surely Williams should be higher than Carter or Morton?

He still had a fantastic average in 1983, but Sigalos was less notable on the world stage that year. I was convinced he'd win at Norden, but he looked pretty ordinary in the mid-field. He was still the rider I wanted Oxford to sign in 1984, when it was announced we had money to spend on top riders. I was wrong there - Hans Nielsen was definitely the correct choice! With hindsight and greater knowledge, I think the narrower tyres in 1983 hurt Sigalos and Les Collins the most. Maybe because they weren't quite so sharp out of the start. Sigalos had looked rather magnificent on the wide Carlisle tyre in 1982. He and Schwartz looked untouchable in the World Pairs Final - I remember the hand signals and that kind of stuff during that meeting. And yet they meekly surrendered that title in '83. Erik and Hans also owned DS in the 1983 WTC - both beat him 2-0 in the comp. Sigalos was a firm favourite of mine. But I think the Danes were in front of him by the time of his injury. And within a couple of years, the competition between Erik and Hans propelled them further forward. I'm not sure if Siggy would have broken that stranglehold, but it would have been interesting to find out.

Although it should be pointed out that Nielsen and Olsen agreed a truce to allow Nielsen to ride in the 1985 World Team Cup Final in the USA. That's the thing - the Danes would argue amongst themselves, but always pulled together when they needed to. They wouldn't let it stopping them winning Gold Medals!

Before Oxford moved up in 1984, Sigalos was my favourite of the top riders. To me, Hans and Erik moved up a gear in 1983, moved up again in 1984, and moved up once more in 1985. I'm not sure if Dennis Sigalos would have been on quite the same level as the two Danes.

Ivan Mauger missed riding for New Zealand for four successive seasons in the World Team Cup. He came back into the competition in 1979 in great style, inspiring his team-mates to win the competition.

That too, although I do think he missed riding in the UK at a time most of his rivals were. Still, he’d been over here for 18 years and wanted to return home to raise his young family. I don’t think Hamill would have got near Nielsen in his prime. The only man capable of beating Hans at his prime was Erik. As much as I loved the old one-off World Final, it would have been very interesting to see those two going hammer-and-tong over a full season. Naturally, I’m biased towards Hans and think he would have won most of the championships under a GP system (whatever the format), but I also recognise it wouldn’t have been a complete shoe-in. I also think that, paradoxically, it’s Erik’s accident that cost Hans more titles than Erik. Hans was on top at the time of Erik’s accident, having won three out of the last four championships, but he lost his edge after Erik got hurt. Maybe it was only 1-2% of his overall performance. But, as Woffy said the other week when I went to see him in the talk at Scunny, at the top level 1% or 0.5% can be everything.

Those stats are true. It's also true that Nielsen was 6-3 against Hamill in 1996, including 3-0 in finals. But a Grand Prix series has always been about consistency, and Hans wasn't riding in enough meetings by 1996 to maintain that consistency. Billy reached more finals (and had a helping hand from Greg) and became World Champion. I think almost every season (whichever format) has been won by the rider who made most finals. Reaching the final is more important than winning it.

I think Nielsen may have made more finals across the season, but a shame we never got to find out! As a counter-argument, the KO system actually seemed to suit Nielsen. Riding in just one league in Poland, I think Hans started to have less of a competitive edge, that started to show in 1996 and especially into 1997. But the introduction of the KO system seemed to suit him down to the ground: 1997 (20 heats plus finals) 7th 1998 (KO) 4th 1999 (KO) 3rd I think, despite his hallmark consistency, Hans always had the ability to raise himself for a big ride. Once his consistency started a bit to fade in the late 90s at the very end of his career, it's that ability that kept him at the sharp end of the standings in 1998 and 1999.

Name any other triple British World Champions who you think are better.

Sam's comeback from the '89 injury was remarkable. But maybe he wasn't as hungry enough to do it after the '93 smash, as he was already World Champion. So there's maybe a parallel between him and Chris Holder, as one-time World Champions who lost their mojo after winning a single title. Gary Havelock could also be added to that list. It takes someone truly remarkable to win three or four or five or six titles. Very few years have had the mixture of determination and ability to do that.

Also had to lock out the fans at least once during 1946. They had tannoy announcements of the results in the car park.

I think the official crowd for 1981 was 71,000. I'm sure I read that the only capacity crowds at Wembley for World Finals were in 1949, 1950, 1951 and 1952. A couple of pre-war World Finals had very large crowds, but I think Wembley's capacity was 100,000 at that point.

At the end of the day, both Glasgow and Newcastle have taken advantage of new riders becoming available to strengthen their sides. Nothing wrong with that.

NEW DATE FOR YOUR DIARY: Friday March 22: PRESS & PRACTICE at 5pm Followed by: MEET THE RIDERS at 7pm in the clubhouse.

Three races from the same night, with the same result. Carl Blackbird beat Hans Nielsen from behind three times. At Cowley. In 1986. The year that Hans won his first World Championship, and recorded a 11.83 average from BL matches.

Um, didn't a Swindon fan (Auntie Doris) suggest Wolves 2017? And it is valid choice, because Wolves took a fabulous victory in the first leg at Blunsdon, only to be missing the two best riders around their track, thus making them vulnerable at home. It wouldn't be my first pick personally (just as Reading 2006 weren't, for the reasons I stated), but I respect the view of the person who put it forward. To say "they don't belong in this discussion" is a bit silly. And Stevebrum also makes an excellent choice in Mildenhall 2018. They were very unlucky indeed.

Yes, I don't think he expected it. In the end, he was caught out by wanting to entertain. Rather than simply feigning an engine failure, he pulled the wheelies. Dave Jessup and Larry Ross did something similar 12 months earlier... without the wheelies. Hardly a murmur from the crowd, although an inquiring young Lucifer Sam did ask my dad what was going on. I think that's what annoyed so much - the inconsistency. DJ and Ross were allowed to do it, but Penhall does it and he's suddenly Public Enemy No 1. White City wasn't the best track, but it was less than a hour from us and where we tended to go for big meetings. There was always memorable going on - Penhall and Carter locking together in '81; Penhall throwing Heat 19 in 82; Sigalos v Nielsen in both the 1982 British Open and 1983 ICF (run-off between the two in one, and controversy in the second).

Wasn't there for that one, Sid. Did the Overseas at White City in '81 and '82. Rather memorable race in the '82 event, featuring Penhall, Sigalos, Moran and Moran. I think my dad told me not to make a fuss as we were leaving, because I was one extremely unhappy 9-year-old after the crowd booed Penhall, who was my childhood hero.

Good choice. I think there was perhaps an even better race in 2001. Gollob v Hancock v Hamill v Adams, I think it was. All four lead the race at one point.

I don't think anyone has argued against Wolverhampton being extremely unlucky in 1993, and very possibly being the most unfortunate team of all. Wolves were extraordinarily unfortunate, although fair play to Belle Vue, who rose to the challenge on the final night, especially their lesser lights. But BWitcher seems unable to acknowledge alternate answers. Every team mentioned on this thread is valid to a certain degree. It's a discussion and there is no one right or wrong answer. Here's another to throw into the mix. Oxford (the National League champions of 1964) were well on their way to winning the first British League in 1965, when No 1 Ron How was injured in a GB v Russia test match at the start of July. In a season where there was no guests and no rider replacement (e.g. no chance of bringing a rider of the calibre of Henka Gustafsson to score paid 16), they were allocated a rider of junior standard, Jimmy Heard, to replace one of the best riders in the country. Somehow, Oxford remained in title contention until September, and finished fourth, just seven points behind champions West Ham. As well as Hammers finished the season, it's easy to locate four additional matches that Cheetahs would have won with Ron How in their side. I'd still say Wolves '93 were even more unlucky, but if anyone said Oxford '65, it is also a valid answer.

Marvyn Cox passing World Champion Erik Gundersen from the back in a Golden Helmet match-race at Oxford in 1986.

So you're saying a team who didn't finish top of the regular standings can't be the most unlucky team ever? That would rule out Wolves '93, as well as many of the other leading candidates, such as Belle Vue '78, Harringay '53 and Cradley Heath '82. Not sure I agree with you there.

He rode at No 1 after Hans had a bad patch in early 1982, while he was getting used to riding on the Godden. Nielsen finished top of the Birmingham averages in all three seasons. I agree that both Alan and Andy Grahame were very classy riders, and they were also fantastic team men. Between 1981 and 1989, there was a Grahame in more than half of the championship-winning sides.

The best racing I've seen on a week-to-week basis is at modern day Scunthorpe, so I understand Rob Godfrey's statement. If I'd have been privileged to watch racing on a weekly basis at Hyde Road in the 70s, maybe I'd disagree. To be honest, I don't think the racing is any better or any worse. The big difference is the atmosphere during meetings - that's not the same. And that's down to crowds being a fraction of what they were.