lucifer sam

Blimey, that's leaping ahead. Mauger in 1967? I don't quite see that one. More likely Briggs. Olsen would have won titles, but Mauger would have been difficult to handle over 11 rounds from 1968 through to 1974. Olsen might have sneaked one in '72, otherwise his time comes more in 1975/77/78. (with Collins '76). EDIT: And I've leapt forward even more. All the best Rob

Hmmm, good point. I did have Briggo down for GP titles, but only from the mid-sixties onwards. Would it have been that long before his first title? After all, he more-or-less pushed Fundin off the track in the 1957 World Final run-off. He wanted it - and badly. I've changed my mind. I'm going for Fundin in 1956 & 1957, Briggo in 1958 (pushing Fundin off the track in the final GP ), and Fundin for 1959 to 1963 (sorry Peter Craven ) All the best Rob

Indeed, but otherwise the whole thing becomes more complicated than an episode of Quantum Leap. All the best Rob

Iris, I see your point. And the competition was fierce in Fundin's period. So at which point would his motivation slipped? 1956 is his first title - so his motivation would have slipped around 60/61? But then again 1960 or 1961 were his peak years. You know, it's all pointing towards him losing the 1962 title to Peter Craven. (I'm still arguing on Craven's behalf ). All the best Rob

And (while the discussion continues regarding 1956 to 1963), we move onto 1964 and 1965. IMO, the leading contenders are: * Barry Briggs * Bjorn Knutsson * Igor Plechanov * Ove Fundin I'm tempted to go for Knutsson in 1964 and Plechanov in 1965, but it's much less clear cut than '56 to '63 (Briggo is my man for 1966 & 1967, but I feel there's plenty to discuss for '64 & '65 first). All the best Rob

Yes, but was Rickardsson as good as Fundin? Probably not. Fundin probably would have won all 8 titles from the 1956 to 1963, but I'm going for all his "bad luck" to come at once in 1962 and therefore allow Peter Craven a title. (Unfortunately it looks like no-one else is backing Craven for a title and the greatest ever Brit is going to finish without a championship ) All the best Rob

Norbold, Knutsson seemed to cope quite well with the nerves in one-off finals - he won it once and finished second twice. There's no doubt from 1961, he was a real force. But I think his peak was in 1964 and 1965 and we'll come to those years shortly. Plechanov's best year also seems to be somewhere between 1964 to 1967 - I think 1962 would have been a little bit too early for him. I'm nailed my colours to the mast for 1956 to 1963, with Fundin champion for 1956 to 1961 & 1963 and Craven for 1962. Do people agree or disagree with that? All the best Rob

Norbold, Briggo's strongest claim appears to be 1958. So could he have beaten Fundin over a 11-round GP series in 1958? I'm not so sure, Fundin was still pretty hot that year. In fact, Fundin looks completely unstoppable from 1956 to 1961. Briggo would be my favourite for 1966-1967 (and probably 1964 & 1965 as well), but we haven't quite got there yet. And what about Peter Craven and Bjorn Knutsson - two giants of the sport, but would they have been World Champion under a GP series? Most likely years seem to 1957 or 1962 for Craven, or 1961 or 1962 for Knutsson (and also 1964 & 1965 for Knutsson, but again we haven't quite gone there ). Actually 1962 looks like a chink in Fundin's armour, he finished just seventh in the NL averages. It's true handicapping was introduced that year, but it seems to have slowed down Knutsson and Craven much less than Fundin. I believe Fundin suffered a broken leg during 1962 as well. Therefore I plump for Fundin for 1956 to 1961 and also 1963, but Peter Craven for 1962. A slightly sentimental choice perhaps, but there you go. What are other people's thoughts for 1956 to 1963? All the best Rob

And it's still too much. Make it 50p and throw in a free packet of Chewits and I'll consider it. All the best Rob

OK, time to get this going again? 1956-1963, could ANYONE have stopped Ove Fundin from taking eight GP titles on the bounce? All the best Rob

See you on the 19th then All the best Rob

Parsloes, just tell the Missus you're popping down to Homebase at 8.00am and then arrive back home at 3.00am the following morning. When she asks we you've been, tell her that the local branch of Homebase didn't have what you wanted but they advised you could get it from the Workington branch so you decided to drive up and get it. There you go. Simples. All the best Rob

Parsnips, will you be at Northside? I've seen the rounds at Scunny and King's Lynn and there's been some good racing. See you there? In the meantime, thanks for the instructions Mimmo, if anyone has got exact directions, it would be much appreciated. All the best Rob

Pete, if I want to drop riders who I've had from the start of the season, do I use the above "old" values or the even older start-of-season vaules (not listed above). Thanks. All the best Rob

Well not JUST the Speedway Star rankings. But it's a useful guide, just as the Stenners books were. Interestingly Jim Stenner had Vic Duggan as No. 1 for 1946 (or rather, from around April 1946 to March 1947) for his Aussie form before he came back over to the UK. Yes 1956 onwards is going to be Fundin dominated... All the best Rob

Norbold - OK, I bow to your superior knowledge regarding 1935. So I think we need to let other people catch up, but so far we have: 1928 - Frank Arthur 1929 - Frank Arthur 1930 - Vic Huxley 1931 - Vic Huxley 1932 - Vic Huxley 1933 - Tom Farndon 1934 - Tom Farndon 1935 - Bluey Wilkinson 1936 - Eric Langton (ArnieG, Bobbath and Rob) or Bluey Wilkinson (Norbold) 1937 - Jack Milne 1938 - Bluey Wilkinson 1939 - Cordy Milne 1946 - Jack Parker 1947 - Vic Duggan 1948 - Vic Duggan 1949 - Jack Parker 1950 - Graham Warren 1951 - Jack Young (Rob / Norbold) or Aub Lawson (Bobbath) 1952 - Jack Young 1953 - Jack Young 1954 - Ronnie Moore 1955 - Ronnie Moore Any disagreements with any of the above? A lot of Australian winners in the above list. We'll plough on with 1956 onwards after every has had a couple of days to discuss the above!! (which will allow allow me to dig out the Speedway Star rankings of the late 50s / early 60s, an idea of a BSF forum member, our very own speedyguy ) EDIT: 1928 now added after suggestion by Norbold. I think that's as far back as we can go, unless anyone has knowledgle of the 1923-1927 seasons in Australia. All the best Rob

Not Max Grosskreutz? He outscored Wilkinson by 20 points in the 1935 England v Australia tests, and then proved nigh-on unbeatable in the 1935/1936 Australia v England test matches. Interestingly, Bluey Wilkinson's 15-point maximum in the 1936 World Final was onboard a bike borrowed from Grosskreutz, who was flying in the opening part of the 1936 season, but was then injured and missed the World Championship qualifying rounds. As for 1929-1934, I really don't know much about these years. All the best Rob

Don't worry I will. Of course, you need a bit of luck to win a GP series as you do the World Final. I'm sure that one year Ove Fundin would have got all the bad luck, and be the victim of some awful refereeing decisions, and Craven would pip him over the series, just as Loram did to Rickardsson in 2000 (and of course, Craven was a better rider than Loram and would have won some rounds). Now off to find an appropriate year... In the meantime, we'd better let everyone else catch up, as we seem to have sprinted forward and covered all the years to 1955. And it also occurs to me that we've diddled poor Tom Farndon out of his moment of glory. The Star-sponsored event started in 1929, so does that mean we should cover 1929 to 1935 as well? I have very little idea regarding these years, apart from I know Vic Huxley was the first speedway superstar and then Farndon became THE rider to beat sometime around 1933 and 1934, up to his tragic death which would have deprived him of the 1935 series. I also know Max Grosskreutz had a good 1935 season. All the best Rob

Norbold, of course there's also the fact we've happily given Graham Warren the 1950 GP series when he may have not been in it And when we get to 1992... we're probably going to not go for Havvy anyway (IMO it's Jonsson's year), but would the man who won the 1992 World Final have been in the 1992 GP series?? 1936 is a headache - there's 4 very worthy contenders (Langton, Wilkinson, Charles and Van Praag) but none of them stands out from the other three. Anyway, let's assume that Jack Young would have been in the 1951 series - I think if he had been, then he'd have won it? Unless, anyway disagrees, Young also gets 1952 & 1953 (by some margin as well - he may have won the 1952 series with a couple of rounds to spare ). 1954 & 1955 - Ronnie Moore both years? Jack Young wasn't quite the force he was, Craven won the 1955 World Final as a rank outsider and Fundin & Briggs were still on the updward curve. On the other hand, a young Moore was at very the top of his game. But what about Brian Crutcher? (The romantic in me wants Peter Craven as the 1960 World Champion - I'm gathering evidence for that for when we get there ) All the best Rob

Norbold, Jack Young was the 11th best in the world in 1950 according to speedway's leading journalist at that time, Jim Stenner. And it was more common for top riders to be in the second division around this time - Ken Le Breton was another example. Didn't a THIRD division rider qualify for the World Final at one point? Even if Young had missed out in the 1950 GP challenge, I reckon they would have given him a seeded slot for 1951. Hmmm, Frank Charles and Lionel Van Praag were also up there in 1936, weren't they? Very tricky one to call, especially as neither Langton nor Wilkinson performed well in the 1936 England v Australia test match series, which were huge meetings back in those days and a good measure of form at the very top level. As for Freddie Williams, yes it's harsh, but I don't think he'd have won a GP series. I'm more concerned that we still leave Britain's finest, Peter Craven, with a World title somewhere amongst the Fundin dominated years when we get there. All the best Rob

Norbold, surely Jack Young won have qualified through the 1950 GP challenge. 1951 is a debateable one. I don't think Biggs would have had the consistency over a series, so Young's main contenders would have been Split Waterman and maybe Aub Lawson. 1952 & 1953 would have been Jack Young by some margin. Agree? As for 1936, we'll wait for further contributors to the debate. I recognise Wilkinson was a serious class act (his World Final record is almost perfect), but Langton seemed to keep it going right through 1936. Any test averages, etc, from this season? Trust 1936 to prove debatable - if we still can't agree, it may come down to a controversial run-off. All the best Rob

OK, we need a few more people's opinions on 1936. Would it have been Eric Langton or Bluey Wilkinson? My argument for Langton is that, with the bonus points system, there was a kind of GP series already taking place, albeit one with a large bias to the final round at Wembley. Langton went into Wembley with 13 bonus points, Wilkinson had 10 - which means Langton would have outscored Wilkinson heavily in the qualifiers. So had there been a full-blown 11-round GP series in 1936, I think Langton would have been the rider with the consistency to take it. And we have gone along with the top bonus point scorer being the champion in 1937, 1938 & 1939. Norbold, what's the argument for Wilkinson? We'll then see what other people think. All the best Rob

Ok, so we have: 1936 - Eric Langton 1937 - Jack Milne 1938 - Bluey Wilkinson 1939 - Cordy Milne 1946 - Jack Parker 1947 - Vic Duggan 1948 - Vic Duggan 1949 - Jack Parker 1950 - Graham Warren Anyone disagree with the above? We now enter the Jack Young era - how many GP titles would have he won? Jim Stenner has him down as the best rider in the world in 1951, 1952 & 1953, would he have held on in 1954 & 1955, or would the new young brigade, headed by Ronnie Moore have caught him up at the some point? All the best Rob

Well 1947 and 1948 are definitely Vic Duggan. What about 1946 though? Jack Parker? And what about 1939 - surely any GP series would have been eight elevenths through before the interruption of Mr. A. Hitler and therefore a result could have been called? All the best Rob

Yes, I would go along with Jack Parker, who had a fabulous season in 1949. Stenner's World Rankings were: 1. Jack Parker 2. Aub Lawson 3. Tommy Price 4. Vic Duggan 5. Wilbur Lamoreux 6. Graham Warren A word for Vic Duggan would won have definitely won a GP series in 1947 or 1948. Duggan crashed out halfway through the 1949 season, then his brother was killed during the 1949-1950 winter and he was never the same again. 1950 = Graham Warren. Agree or diasgree? All the best Rob