AlanF

I no longer live in the UK and would pay good money to stream meetings same day or the day after. The BSPA have no way of turning my love of the sport into cash.

It should go to arbitration because slavery was abolished centuries ago. You can't force somebody without a mutually agreed contract to work for a specific employer for whatever they are willing to pay him. If you won't let him work somewhere else without extorting a large fee, then you are denying him a right to make a living. The real problem is not so much Redcar but the outdated and probably illegal asset system.

Everything is way too complicated. Every team should have two British riders 23 or under. No foreigner's average should ever be below 6 for team building. Apply to both leagues. Plenty of opportunities for British riders. Any scheme that harms riders like Branford because he is 3.6 and not 3 does not make sense.

Where would the riders come from for one big league? Just about every team has 2 or 3 double uppers in it.

The whole thing is a massive own goal from the BSPA and I am surprised there are any posts at all on here supporting or justifying John Cook's actions. Obviously there have been a ton of posts on here that proved to incorrect since it was announced that there was a heat leader list. Why was that? Because they never told anybody who was on the list and what the criteria were. It's beyond belief that hey would keep this secret. The fans are the lifeblood of the sport and keeping this secret was ridiculous. If they were confident in their methodology and the names on the list, it makes zero sense to hide it. To then belatedly publish it and list out the methodology and tell fans that if they don't understand if or think it was unfair.then they are idiots is outrageous. If they had bothered to publish the list earlier nobody would have had to make guesses and question the fairness of it all. Terry Russell complains about ill informed internet keyboard warriors posting incorrect statements about Swindon's stadium. Well, guess what. They are ill informed because nobody was bothering to inform them of the truth. Public relations these days are simple and basically free with email and social media and the BSPA are terrible at it.

If you don't agree with the heat leader list you are either thick or biased, or both.

I was stunned when I read John Cook's comments in the Star. Alienating your customers like that is unforgivable. I have long thought Promoters should embrace the fact that fans are spending time discussing the sport rather than whining about it. If that is what they think of their customers, no wonder so few attend.

I think if a deal can't be agreed by a certain date they have to be loaned at a preset loan fee (I may be wrong there). Even so, there.is no reason why a club should be entitled to a loan fee and the market for a rider is reduced to those willing to pay the loan fee. I think Kus has been trying to get away from Redcar a few seasons.

You are correct, it is a free economy. Once a worker has completed a contract they are free to go and work for whoever they choose.

The only asset a club should have is the rider's contract. Once that expires they should be a free agent as they are in every other sport in the world (i know somebody wil point out one where they are not). Amazed that nobody has challenged it in court yet.

Would not suggest that the BSPA should pay for it. I think where we differ is in the riders willingness to pay their expenses. If they are not willing to invest in their career and will not do anything without a guaranteed contract, then it is good to weed them out and not waste a year struggling in the PL. If they want a career in a foreign country, the onus is on them to make the effort. The Aussies are such a tight knit group anyway, that I am sure they would be able to use equipment already here. I am sure that the riders we want in the UK, such as the Darcy Ward's and Brady Kurtz's of this world would have been well funded before they arrived in this country. Alternatively, go pick up some meetings in Europe to fund the trip. If a rider is going to give up at the first hurdle put in front of them, they are unlikely to be successful anyway.

I think we agree. That's why I and saying get over here and show us what you can do. My argument is that the current criteria is flawed. Finishing 4th on an indoor 180 metre track against little or no opposition is not a good indicator.

I think if you put them on NL tracks they would be very attractive meetings and would attract a good crowd. Don't a lot of these guys come over for practice laps on UK tracks anyway? In any case, i think the onus is on the rider to get here if they want a permit. Those that are likely to have a chance of making it are likely to already have some form of sponsorship or unofficial agreement with a UK promoter if they make it. I doubt it's the greatest solution, but it's much better than the current system.

Was only thinking of about 3 rounds. One each on large, medium and small tracks. Din't know if if would fly with UKVI, don't they take direction from the BSPA on qualifying criteria?

I don't think that the way work permits are handed out is either fair or results in the best riders coming to Britain. I don't see how a rider performs on an 180 metre indoor track in NSW bears any resemblance to how he will perform in Britain. So what is the alternative? A quick scan of the riders signed in Speedway Star suggests that there is a current need for about 25 work permit riders, give or take a few. I also believe there are more than 25 riders who would love to ride here, so why not get them to compete against each other for the privilege. At a specified cut off date (let's say August 31st 2015) the top 15 work permit riders in the averages automatically qualify for a 2016 work permit. Use whatever multiplier is in effect to accurately compare EL riders to PL. Would also need some rule about which average to use for double uppers. Any other rider who wants a work permit for 2016 has to apply by August 31st. Let's say that the 10 who finished outside the top 15 want to come back and 10 other riders apply. Those riders would then compete in a Grand Prix style format in several rounds across UK tracks in September. The top 10 get permits, the others can try again next year. Not only do we get the riders who can perform on British tracks, but also have some additional exciting meetings. I know there are lots of details that would need to be defined such as somebody who qualifies and then declines a contract etc., but I think the basic premise is good. Good idea or just crazy?

Maybe NKI agreed to ride if it was Thursday.

Maybe not. But then a supporter of a 5th place team riding away to a 4th place team is much more likely to travel if there is a play off place for 4th place. Somebody posted earlier that Wolverhampton had their biggest crowd for an end of season meeting against a Belle Vue team chasing 4th. How many of those would have turned up if there was no reward for finishing 4th?

I don't have any figures, Speedway is notorious for not releasing attendance figures or financials. I know that I watched the Belle Vue v Poole grand final meeting last night and they said it was the largest crowd they had ever seen in that stadium. You may be right about increasing "regular season" crowds if there were no play offs. Neither of us know. With the current financial situation in the sport, nobody is going to risk taking away the play offs and hoping that regular crowds increase. The only real objective data that I can see is that the PL and NL have tried both and have chosen the play off route. I can't think of a good reason why they would do that if it wasn't financially beneficial.

How would you measure that? A club's finances will surely be better if they give the fans what they want. The only real objective test of what the fans want is whether they are prepared to hand over their hard earned cash to attend. Therefore, it would appear that fans love the play offs.

Possibly. Probably only Neil Watson and Tsunami would be privvy to the actual income and expenditure of running a club. The fact that the PL and NL are running play offs without the benefit of Sky money suggests that they see a financial benefit in doing so.

I think the main efficiency in both the EL draft and the PL 3 pointer is that the riders selected do not become assets of the club. They are effectively one season loans. Therefore, clubs are much more inclined to go with who can score a few points now over who has the most potential to be a good scorer for the club in years to come. There is no incentive to invest in potential.

I thinks that people on both sides of the argument are taking very polarized positions, and as is usually the case, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Issue 1: Are the playoffs fair? Clearly the purist way of finding the team over the course of a season is to play everybody home and away and the team with the most points are champions. Issue 2: Do the promoters make more / lose less by having the playoffs? It seems fairly clear to me that they do, evidenced by the big crowds at playoffs. A lot of the argument seems to be where one issue is used to "prove" the other, when, in my opinion, they are totally separate issues. The only poll that ultimately counts is the number of clicks on the turnstiles. Given the choice between a purist format and making money, the promoters will always choose the latter, as owners do in every other sport, so that is not a knock on the promoters.

My son's high school football team are the Warriors. Much better logo. http://northcobbathletics.com/football

I don't have any links or data but I would imagine that Sky insist on the playoffs. Therefore, no play offs probably means no sky. No sky means no handout. No handout means clubs closing. I may be totally wrong but I can se that playoffs may indirectly have prevented clubs from closing.

1986. Swindon v Oxford. Swindon had just dropped Per Sorensen and Oxford signed him. Swindon 28 Oxford 50 (may have been even more than that, can't quite remember) and Per scored a paid maximum. Happy days!