Grachan

I think the PL became a lot stronger in the late 80s, after the top flight started to struggle and the NL began to sign foreign riders. Instead of just a league for those on the way up or the way down it became a proper, competitive league - just at a lower level. By 1988 (the year of the Poole footage), the top flight was down to about 12 clubs and teams began dropping down for econmic reasons. I'd say the PL is definitely tougher than the old NL for those very reasons. The old second division and NNL wasn't much different to the National League now. That's why genuinely talented riders like Peter Collins and Michael Lee could come in and straight away be heatleaders in much the same Tai Woffinden could in the third tier recently. One reason there are so many PL riders in the British final now is because of the lack of clubs in the EL plus the doubling up. If we had 18 clubs at top level and no doubling up, then the British Final would be pretty much full of EL riders. It's funny that people call doubling up riders "Premier League" riders all the time, when they are just as much EL as PL.

After the green light comes on would be my guess.

I know they weren't due to be riding, but it did show a very strong tendancy among speedway riders to get rat arsed that rather surprised me at the time bearing in mind they ride motorcycles for a living most days. I'm sure Darcy Ward isn't the first rider to get drunk the night before a meeting, it's just he was daft enough to do it before a meeting where they had alcohol testing.

Heat 15 counts I'm sure. It's one of the reasons heat leader averages have dipped so much. I certainly don't recall averages ever being just for programmed rides.

Heat 15 and R/R also count towards the averages I believe. If so it was 12 from 6 (3,3,1,3,F,2). That averages 8.00. It counts towards his total, though. So Darcy was, technically, top scorer. Zengi averaged more, though, at 9.33.

Actually his average went down last night.

Sometimes people just need to learn to let go

Hey, guess what! Rain forecast for tomorrow. (Edit - well it is on Met Office anyway. Accuweather looks better, so let's go with that one instead)

Yes. well done Darcy. Well done lad. Well well done Darcy the Robin.

Oh yeah. Forgot about them.

Just for the record: Well done Darcy on getting 15 last night. You da man, Darcy. A true Robins legend.

They're winding you up, Starman. Just like you did with me

Strewth. What's your problem? Little green monster coming out a bit there I think!

This has been our Achilles heel all season and is the main reason we will struggle to reach the play offs. We do still have a chance, but at least we can now enjoy watching a real quality number one for the rest of the year I guess.

I went to the World Final in Vojens in the 80s. I saw one very well known rider totally out of it on the ferry and another one at the meeting. Neither were riding in the World Final, but I think this i fairly typical of a lot of riders. People give Darcy Ward a lot of stick, but I don't think he's done too much different than a lot of other people who like to have a go.

I remember Havelock getting no end of stick at Reading from people on the pits bend. Always seems a bit unneccesary to me, really. I'm all for a bit of panto booing, but nastiness and bitchiness always make me wonder about the sanity of the person dishing it out.

This is your idea of being 'The Voice of Reason' is it?

Please. Go away. You and all the others who suddenly seem intent on trolling every discussion about Swindon. Very frustrating.

Looks lost now. Shame as we were on a 5-1 apparently.

Harsh exclusion maybe, as it was at the start, but it was Gollob's fault.

I didn't pick them. You picked them by saying Yeates would easily get double figures. That's a minimum 8.00 average, so that's the level you put him at. That is the level of rider that scores double figures in the EL. This is what you are saying. Riders above 8 (ie similar standard to Martin Yeates): Holder Janowski Iversen Doyle Ward Riders below 8 (ie not as good as Martin Yeates) Zagar Andersen Jonsson Harris Lindgren Kildemand Correct. Yes, as I've said. The top flight was stronger then. The riders that chose to stay NL did so because they lacked ambition and opted for easy money in the lower leagues. They were never going to become top international riders because they lacked the ambition.

They would have been. Yes. regarding Yeates. Having no trouble getting double figures from 5 rides (including a heat 15) gives him an 8 point average minimum. So, yes, you are saying he's as good as them. I would agree that nowadays these would be high up in the list of British riders due mainly to this not being such a good period for British riders, but you,re basing the strength of an entire league based on a select few riders who really shouldn't have stayed there because they were too good for it. I think it shows that the standard in the top league has dropped and the standard in the second tier has become stronger.

The number of double uppers show how the PL is stronger than the old NL. In the NL days those riders would not be in the lower league. They would have moved on.

Swindon v Poole is on Monday.

You think Martin Yeates would have had no trouble scoring double figures in the EL? So you're effectively saying he would have an 8 point average. That puts him at the same level as Darcy Ward, Maciej Janowski and Niels Kristian Iversen. Martin Yeates was a good NL rider but do you really think he was as good as those 3? I certainly don't. Decent riders never stayed long in the old NL. Nick Morris, for example, would have been gone by now and be full time at Swindon. The real top riders were people like the Owens, Yeates, schofield, Jackson etc. People who spent most of their careers at the lower level. They were decent riders, but overall it was much more of a stepping stone league for the promising riders - much more than it is today.