spook

I dont know when you started watching speedway but if you werent around in the eighties you need to brush up on some of your history......... Ironically considering some may consider Rye as one of the leading lights in what we are discussing here........ a certain Ronnie 'dastardly' Russell in what must have been his second season decided that the other promoters were out to get him and refusing to let him have decent riders............ so he decided he would break what was only a gentleman's agreement in the BSPA that the National League (PL) would be kept strictly to Commonwealth riders and signed the German Peter Schroek and the Dane Jens Rasmussen.............. the proverbial hit the fan but there was nothing the rest of the promoters could do about it.................. the floodgates were open......................... Initially in the following years we saw the zorros and the topinkas dropping down to finish their careers but then the middle order gradually started clogging up track this alongside the quality of the GB team and despite us going through a dip anyway post Jessup, Lee, Collins, Carter, Morton etc the NL was no longer producing at the rate that it was previously........... the Wigg's, Cox's Havvy's and Cross's were fewer and further between.................... this has continued slowly from those days right up to the bitter end of where we are now The Premier League is not supposed to be a rival to the EL............. the very nature of doubling and halving the averages between the two leagues should give the complete story................. the fact that we dont have bona fide promotion and relegation should also indicate that this is not a scenario like football either............... simply put the PL should be a stepping stone just like the CL ........ yes there will be guys dropping down to finish their careers..... yes there will be guys staying down for 'safe' earnings just like Joe Owen did all those years ago..... and there will be the lee dickens or tony atkins hanging around but they will always be at risk due to their non improving averages............. but the PL has to have a regular flow between the CL and the EL of our guys what is currently happening is that the flow is coming from Oz and Europe and back again..... with few coming from the CL or going to the EL and no i'm happy to move on to other promoters if you are touchy over Peter........... but he is a shining example of what is going wrong and how fans are completely missing the point because this has been going on for so long and editing to reply to your edit: nonsense ........... do you not understand that out of 10 riders two of them always makes the progress of eventually making it but one of them will fall before the final hurdle...... that another 2 will make steady progress and that 1 of them through hard work might end up making it......... that another 2 might get to PL HL level ..... and that the remainder will be 2nd string/old CL hand or retired now turn that 10 into 2 and tell me what we have once again this is all about opportunities and volume for Brits..... not for overseas riders

agreed it isnt just berwick..........disagree completely the PL is not a rival to the EL it is a lower league where our guys should be able to train themselves up... sorry but nonsense justification just as your previous statement here: as above this is nonsense yes it does affect them... of course it affects them........... with the few CL teams how many riders in those teams should be getting a crack at PL this season? Then increase the amount of teams because if the policies in place were changed then the CL would be supported once again.... and then increase those riders at the same rate who should be getting a crack ................ there will always be the 5/6 pointers like dicken, evans et al........ this is not a justification for clogging up and funneling the opportunities with journeymen or youngsters from other countries I have never indicated that it is.... I have said that it is the promoters and the support of the promoters policies by the fans No the Zorro's and Parker's are good for our grass roots... they show our youngsters the professionalism that is required to make a successful career..... these guys deserve to be a fans favourite in one of our grass roots leagues......... they are bona fide heatleaders What do you know about Rye's 'track time'? .... as it goes they dont have that much track time....... they have enough for the PL and CL matches and then the odd hour here and there inbetween........... they are regulated by the council just like anyone else............. the difference is that Len Silver invests the time, effort and organisation into bringing on young brits, supporting the CL instead of flights, houses and kitting out overseas riders This is all cliched nonsense............. ask the Rye House riders how much they want it.......... ask some of those guys in the CL who cant get a PL reserve spot how much they want it........... ask the promoters who gained assets out of new overseas signings this season how much they were influenced by the fact that they would be gaining new assets this aspect of this discussion has been done time and time again.............. the pence per mile travelling fee has not been updated for donkeys..... it is unrealistic............ where are the CL teams for these clubs? ............ I understand the geographical issues but there just isnt much effort made at all is there? The last I heard the only training at junior level was Kenny McKinnas school some 2 years ago ..............Instead we have flights, homes, bikes, vans invested in for the overseas guys......... this is all part and parcel of the viscious cycle that the promoters have got themselves in.................. Peter Waite cannot get himself out of this now without extra investment to either set up a CL team or to offer other CL lads the same kind of support he offers his regular cycle of overseas signings .............. Len Silver does not get himself into that money pit and the last guy he did get into with it he sold along with the vans and the bikes he paid for......... instead Len now invests into the riders of the CL team and offsets losses of running a CL team with potential asset earnings and the earnings of the PL team (if there are any).......... he sold Barrie Evans and Joel Parsons collectively for 20k+ ....... Steve Boxall, James Cockle and Daniel Giffard have also moved on whether sold or on loan fees.......... he has 5 guys in the rockets who are full assets and came from the Raiders......... and of course a full Cobras team full of assets Ask yourself how many fans it would put on the gate if a local guy came through the CL team and then rode for the PL team a perfect finishing statement there arent enough of them doing that because there arent many of them to start with .................exactly the point of the whole thread Overseas assets are killing the CL...... they are making the PL a rival to the EL and a training ground not for our youngsters but for youngsters of other countries..... not a home training ground which is entertaining enough for people to watch which is exactly what it should be........... and as a result we have few Brits at PL heatleader level and few at EL reserve and 2nd string level Peter Waite will always be Peter Waite and you may support the decisions he makes but it does not mean that he is doing anything for British riders or the standard of british riders in british speedway................... and to go full circle the same can be said about most promoters in both the PL and EL p.s and for the record Raikkonen was renowned for being well over the top with his nights drinking..... the year he curbed it he won the championship................. having been with the gp riders the night/morning (!!) before a GP though I can safely say that 75% of the field were having a good time and that it wasnt the best preparation for a world championship speedway grand prix.......... thats 75% of the field covering all nations

What you are talking about with Josh Auty though is very different to what we are talking about in general here.......... not only that but you raise one of the few examples in recent years of a Brit being chased rather than a youngster from another country being chased........... exciting young talent will always be chased and they will always have the opportunity to raise their demands........ unless of course it is regulated ............. the difference is should we allow the exciting young talent from every speedway nation in the world to be an option on a low average in what is in effect one of our training leagues? The point here is that for every Auty, Woffinden, Bridger etc there should be 10 others coming through with each of them............ there will always be those guys who are earmarked at an early age for greatness..... but there will always be those earmarked for greatness who never get there...... as there are also those who arent earmarked for greatness who do get there............ what we are talking about here are opportunities and volume Which clubs have closed due to supporting brits? I'm very confused you have most definitely suggested that if clubs started doing this they would close.................. more to the point why arent promoters looking at the likes of Len Silver and seeing that the overseas asset game is just stocks and shares?.... a mini gambling game within what is supposed to be a professional sport.............. how much do we think Steve Boxall is 'worth' in loan fees or full transfer? non progressive brits? eh? who is non progressive? we've been here before wjm .... and i'm sorry to say but the post you have created is exactly the type of post I was describing in my opening post when i said: I am pleased that you back Peter Waite and his most dubious transfer policy and choices in what riders he supports and which ones he discards after they have become an asset or a better option has come up somewhere in the far reaches of eastern europe ...... but overall it does no good for the league.... and lets face it overall it hasnt really done much good for Peter or the Bandits over the years.............. assets are an illusion and yet they are guiding the policies of most clubs .... and in the most negative way for the opportunities of our guys

I think one of the biggest ironies with this situation is that we can almost guarantee that once something happens like we finish last in a race off or dont even make the race off...... then all of a sudden the promoters will jump into action.............. I think that they do care but generally as speedway promoters they only care about whats right in front of their noses or what affects them over the season ahead As with everything in our fine sport in this country unless people start looking ahead further than tomorrow then it is going to be that much harder to do anything about. p.s. there is absolutely no issue with chris harris ...he has won a gp... missed out on automatic qualification by 1 point .... is above NKI and Lindgren in the BL averages .... and like those two is still improving and safely be described as world class......... just like Scott Nicholls he is at the top of the game.... how they perform at that level is a different matter.................... what we are talking about here are the amount of guys allowed to come through who have a genuine chance of joining them

I dont get your point on the aussie national championship vintage? what has that got to do with the quality of aussies coming through? yes exactly Britain is their first port of call at a young age.... they have learned and honed their skills here ....... if they are doing that here then this has reduced the chances for our young guys.....no?

well to be fair I did post that before you were 'nice' ......... and ive read some of your nasty ones which is why I completely keep on your good side yes I agree Peter but what is the point if policy dictates that opportunities in the PL are few and far between for guys coming from the CL? I like an exciting and accomplished overseas rider like the next guy but he should be of a certain standard and coming in at a fixed high average........ the 5 assessed PL average encourages teams to go for strength in depth and have a maximum of one 3 point rider... if any.......... the whole league is choked and purely because the promoters knew about the numbers of Aussies that they could sign this season and this is on top of the usual asset signing with the holy grail being false averages and prosperous assets........... once again as per other threads it is not the fault of these riders.... it is the fault of the promoters If they did the sensible and supportive thing in the PL and CL and stuck to the plan results would be seen within 5 years and then attentions could be turned to the EL

tbh I thought he had one of the fastest bikes in the GP field when his dad was doing his engines....... the issue at that time with scott were his tortouse gating reflexes and his ontrack decisions I agree though, I do think he has some issues either in the communication between himself and his mechanics.... or his mechanics in general .......... this is actually statistically able to be seen as I posted here http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/ind...p;#entry1241877

lol or maybe you should take the time to read it and not assume that it is going on about the same things if it helps you to overcome the difficult hurdle of reading it shazzy then i'm sure your mate Neil might agree with at least half of it

argh dont get me started on him! yeah I fully agree that the Danes know how to do things............... but getting back to the point I was making...... the chances are that they didnt do it individually ..... Bjarne does not have performance like that in the league ..... and to some degree he doesnt have it in the GP either.......... the same could be said for NKI and Bjerre................... and we dont need to go through the somewhat ordinary names in the swedish team and their performances do we? FSP I take your point but we are not talking about mugs here......... Scott is a top line rider wherever he goes...... yes his gating and machinery has been found wanting at GP level in recent years but he is still top drawer.......... Bomber was top drawer last season ..... and Rico bizarrely cant make up his mind whether he is or isnt.......................... you cannot tell me that last night was not just about being not good enough and that machinery didnt play a large part in it? Yes I dont think they stood a chance of winning with Stead and Allen in the team (although i though Allen did himself proud) but we certainly should have been up there with the swedes as Rune Holta has proven time and time again.... you do not have to be a great rider to do well..... but you do need stonking machinery!

So many accusations, short term solutions and critical posts and yet the writing has been on the wall for so many years......... yes our guys underperformed and the bikes were pants but this issue was spotted seasons ago when we were Loramski-less ............ at that point we had an ex world champion still at the top of the game relatively.......... 2 guys still not at their peak who were with him in the gp's and Norris and Barker who could all still do a job........ the issue at that time was that Havvy and Screen were no more the force that they used to be and were no better than Norris and Barker............... and there was nothing under them who were looking potentially the real deal with the exception of Bomber, Stead, Neath and Howe So what has happened since? Howe has become a solid club rider who performs well at home.......... stead has become a steady club rider ........ Neath went for the security of the PL and has assumed that level ....... Bomber made it................. Norris had a one year resurgence but along with Barker has since retired.......... Screeny has regressed a little more ......... Havvy is in the PL slightly going backwards........ Loramski has been beset with injury ........... Louis has returned but once again has suffered with injury and can not be classed as anywhere higher than the bracket that Havvy and Screen were in...... and the same minimal amount of youngsters are starting to come through so on the basis of what happened with the last crop of youngsters it would be fair to say that a quarter of the ones that people tip for the top will actually be making it............ so out of Bridger, Kennett, Woffinden and King only 1 should be making it............. personally I think two from that group will be but that isnt the point............ the point is that while the rules and attitudes amongst the promoters remain the same and that the asset system is there to use and abuse we will consistently have only a handful of youngsters coming through of which only one from each crop will make it to world class level................ this means that consistently the GB team will have 3 at most guys who's skill level is good enough to be there Every thread that comes up that discusses our grass roots and the youngsters that are or arent coming through we always have those supporters who's attitude towards it is defensive and almost as if they are replying on behalf of their own club's policy......... and yet we have the same guys moaning here about the performance of the brits...... get used to it because until the promoters stop playing the asset game and investing in overseas youngsters rather than our own this will remain the same ........ The Conference League has been treated like an irritation - or something to exploit................ the PL has possibly the fewest amount of brits per team than there have ever been and looking down the averages there are only a few of them that could/should be stepping up................... the EL is obsessed with finding the next Sajfutdinov on a 5 because the rules permit it ... or the next Chris Holder to be farmed out to a PL club because the rules permit it..... rather than showing the same support and investment to our guys....... I'd also like to head off the 'If they are good enough they will make it' brigade because it is nonsense......... if they get the opportunities they have a chance of making it......... if the opportunities are thin then only a select few have a chance of making it...... and out of those few one or none will make it Ultimately the blame lies with the promoters and by extension the supporters.................. the promoters are only too happy to continue with this nonsense monopoly game of assets that they have created ..... and when a plan does manage to get through the conference that is to the benefit of the grass roots it is removed for no apparent reason after a year or two when results were starting to be seen....................... and the fans? .......... we currently have a thread in general with fans jokingly arguing about who has dibs on emil sajfutdinov on a 5 .... only behind the joking is a real urgency to win the race for him on such a false average and what would be a lucrative free asset if he was loaned out or sold later on................. the fans have lost the plot as much as the promoters by actually not only aknowledging the system but behaving as if it is completely normal

I dont know who a couple of the posters in this thread are kidding but year on year now the Danes and the Poles prove that their engine tuning and bike setup has not been done individually.......... The Danes bikes were outrageous last night... they didnt do it from the gate half the time and instead we saw them overtaking by the time the 3rd bend came up even if they were off gate 3................ this is not just desire or talent.... this is 90% machinery Kasprzak's future Polish team's aspirations would have taken a big dent this season as he quite obviously was not on the pace...... whether this undermines my argument or it simply means that either he or his mechanics didnt listen...i'm not sure ........ but the Poles are never caught napping in their own country The tuning of our bikes and the general setup of them is a huge concern for me................ we had allsorts of things discussed by sky last night with the discussion finally turning to track temperature........ well hang on if we had so many Coventry 'specialists' in the team then surely they should have been ahead of the game there? ............ so how did the Swedes and the Danes figure it out? Was someone there with the necessary equipment to test such things? If indeed as one of the posters suggest.... that Scott has one of the best tuners in the game then i'd suggest he is either being given shoddy work...... or that he needs to poach Greg's mechanics off him! So this is two world cup events on the trot where the machinery has been well of the pace............ if thursday makes it three then it is finally time that the GB team manager's role is a little more than someone who keeps them sweet........ and that instead some involvement in the machinery takes place I have a couple of questions........... Graham Jones was seen in the pits with Freddie Lindgren last night....... does that mean he is tuning his engines or just spannering? and how many genuine world class tuners do we actually have?

This is so simple No preparation No investment No high class tuning No grass roots Promoters with hands over their ears going 'lalalalalala' ............ and no immediate resolution to the problem we need to hope that Ed and Tai come good at the highest level over the next couple of years or we wont even be making it to the race off

which begs the question of shouldnt the Russians have done the same? it is still dubious organising by the FIM though and the race off will be poorer for it

Jim Lynch got so much of the plan correct in making sure that Ed and Tai race in Denmark but why oh why not tonight?? I can only assume that he is trying to qualify for the final which is pure folly for a nation that has no chance of winning in Vojens without having the advantage of fine tuning the setup in the race off

no i'm sorry but that is incorrect the Russians had less chance of winning a heat during the entire meeting if they did not make that swap.......... the competition that Emil ended up having was significantly less of a threat to a heat win than Leigh Adams in 22 because his gate draw was so much better in 23 Also by swapping there was the hope that Gizatullin would be able to beat a very out of sorts Kasprzak whereas in 23 he would be facing Sullivan and Holta who on paper would be too much for him I like looking out for any dodginess going on... and while the alarms were going off in my head when the swap was made..... I think Emil's win in the next heat destroys any notion of collusion......... if there had been collusion then he would be looking to finish behind holta and in front of Sullivan wouldnt he? Certainly not the victory by half a straight that he had

exactly Mateusz! imo holding the race off on the track of the final a couple of days before is absolute nonsense...... it provides a whole lot more than a second chance and the statistics prove it however while these are the rules then it suits the Poles down to the ground to get properly setup for the final ..... as it will the Brits if they have the sense to make 100% sure that they dont win at Coventry (not that I dont think the Danes will beat them anyway at Cov) With Ole famed for track manipulation the only thing he could do to provide an advantage for Denmark in the final is if the race off is given a grippy track and then he reverts it back to uber slick for the final....... it should be interesting to see what happens

The result wasnt in question though.... whether sajfutdinov was in both races or not they were still going to come 3rd so maybe the team manager did the right thing ahead of the race off I must admit when the swap was made suspicious thoughts of polish collusion did cross my mind as it was odds on that Adams would win the heat and that Emil would beat Kasprzak.................. but Emil's victory by a large margin in the next put that to rest.............. I can see why the team manager did what he did.. I dont think it gave them any more points than they would have had but it was worth a shot

ah perlease no! You guys have such short memories.......... Tony Millard's commentary technique consists of repeating the same old things over and over again.......... he makes ridiculous statements for a commentator like...... '8 points will see him qualify'......when we know that it isnt a given........ and his alzheimers is as bad as Murray Walker's before he was asked not to return................... we are doing very well with only having Mr Millard part time thankyou very much and the only other thing to say is......... The Russians are coming!!!

haha the man is something else and he made a right mug of Davey Watt

When did Leigh Aadams decide that he would be returning to the GP's next season? The last I heard this 'could' be his last GP season

tbf Pollyanna I said he wrecked leigh adams season..... not his night....... Bjarne has already wrecked his season...... not that I am saying that the points he was likely to get in that race and the semi wouldnt have been helpful.......... or the likelyhood of him getting a permanent wildcard for next season if he ended up winning cardiff Leigh Adams however is very much waving goodbye to any hopes of the title

I seriously hope that we dont qualify............. from Coventry anyway

gah poor old Nicki P i'm going to get my violin out for him maybe instead of taking acting lessons he should take a look at his career and the way he has behaved within it........ people have long memories and someone who rides the line of fairness and recklessness to the degree that he has is always going to suffer with public opinion were my ears decieving me in the recent leszno GP or were the crowd roundly booing him there as well? ...... seems it might be at least two of the biggest speedway nations that feel the same Nicki............. and I cant imagine the swedes are too fond of you either

not to mention the extremely odd choice he made in dramatically chucking it across the surface after he had picked it!......... he wasnt happy about something and it was an extremely odd gate to pick when yellow was available and had periodically shown that it could have a chance

the simple fact of the matter here for me is that I look at the GB team for Cov and then I look at the Danish team and the reality is clear............. the only chance we have of winning in Vojens is if we have the time to get dialled in with the race off................. that would mean no embarresments like last year in the final and it would mean a slim chance of success..... as per the TRick-less swedes a few years ago There is no point in simply making sure that the team get to the final with riders that wont be used again............. it is time that people start looking further than day to day and look towards the future............. the plan until we have at least 4 GP standard riders should be to go to the race off...... and give ourselves a chance with this 'genius' ( ) plan in place here we will have 2 guys who wont be used later aiming to get the team straight into the final.... where we then throw the two youngsters into the cauldron............ bananas!..... completely topsy turvy........................... the only nice thing I can say is that at least Jim Lynch has highlighted the main two hopes for the future and will be giving them experience.................... just what that experience will be is a different matter.... lets hope it wont be like last year!