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So THAT explains it! I always used to watch the live streams here, but this year it has been really annoying to lose that... Steve

Kneeling to Havvy's right. Steve

I think that is Michael Graves back left (on Banger's right). Steve

Not sure about that, but he didn't have a particularly good year; an average of under 8 for King's Lynn, and he didn't reach the British Final. Maybe there was an injury involved, but someone else will have to shed more light on this... Steve

Hmmm... I never knew Gary Havelock rode for England! Personally, I think we should get this thread pinned so everyone can post their favourite photos of Havvy on here... Steve

That really is so true. I've actually had a couple of private conversations (via this forum and on FB) with him, and said that he has so much to offer, but that a lot of the stuff he comes up with does him no favours. Sidney: I am not on edge at all - I just wanted him to answer the bloody question! I have no idea why he is so evasive. I know I can be long-winded at times, but it is because I like to use logic and reason to substantiate my point of view. I loved that recent thread you started about Carter, Simmons, Morton, Louis, and Wilson, and I loved the way there were a bunch of people producing achievements and stats to substantiate their own personal view. He can't - or WON'T do that... Steve

It really doesn't matter how many times you post the same stuff, it really doesn't substantiate anything, but again, you have conveniently chosen to ignore the reason for my comments... Please, answer the question!!! Steve

Fair points, but why - for someone who apparently considers the last forty or so years "meaningless" - are you so keen on a VINTAGE speedway group encompassing the material from just twenty-five years ago? However, yet again you have carefully selected the text to which you wish to - or not wish to, as the case may be - respond. It's actually quite sad that you want others to accept and respect YOUR views, but you constantly refuse to show the same respect to them when all they are doing is asking you a question. I don't get why you won't use logic and reason to substantiate your point of view, unless you genuinely feel that events like the South African Championship ARE a major factor in proving the quality of an individual. Steve

Do you think that all facts should be considered when seeking to substantiate your own personal feelings by NOT responding to a simple and perfectly justified question asked by another forum member? Or do you feel that you, - as an individual - are qualified to issue statements with having to respond? Of course, you have a marked tendency to pick and choose what criteria you use - or ignore - when you feel fit, and I am sure I m not the only one who has noticed the hypocrisy in much of what you write. For instance, you freely admit that that you are still interested in the "history" of the sport, although I am not sure of the historical period of which you speak. Very recently, you stated on this forum that post-70's speedway was "meaningless" to you. If that is the case, how are you such an expert on Gary Havelock and Tai Woffinden? Likewise, if post-70's speedway was "meaningless:, why did you take it upon yourself to change the guidelines of a Facebook speedway speedway group? The owner of the group clearly stated that the timeline to be considered was pre-1990, yet you you started posting post-1990 items, and "justified" that by issuing statements that the group had been founded a couple of years previously, and should therefore now be including items up to 1992! Then again, you posted a photo to the group of an adult Jason Crump, believing it to be from the 1980's... All very interesting when these items are from a time period which for you, was "meaningless"... It just makes it worse when you feel that you are above answering a straightforward question from waihekeaces1. Steve

One name that is often forgotten is Maxine Hill (now Beck). Maxine had a few outings for the Hackney juniors without making a huge impression. When it came to grasstrack however, she was so different, and was able to compete with the men on an equal basis. I saw her do well at a meeting in Caterham, which was Tony Primmer's first outing on the grass. I actually worked with Maxine at Merton Council (we were in different departments, but worked in the same building), and we used to go down and play darts at lunchtime. She retired after sustaining a couple of nasty injuries. Really nice girl. Steve

Fair enough, but are you going to answer the question? Steve

Hello????? Anybody there???? Steve

Well, it's being South African Champion that has secured his place as an all-time great! You know, you have me checking this thread on a regular basis looking for gustix's response... I think he is just doing this for dramatic effect! Steve

The important thing to remember about American sports - certainly with both football and baseball - is that they don't compete against the others in an equal amount of matches. Therefore, there is a slightly greater value to playoffs. As far as baseball, the number of divisions within a league (and remember that all divisions run parallel) can also lead to another anomaly; the fact that if the two best teams in the league happen to be in the same division, then the team with the second best record in the entire league could miss out on a spot in the playoffs! That is why it is structured the way it is. In speedway, and British footy, that can't happen. Steve

Again, like I said earlier, it seems that PC "overshadowing" Mort was more in the minds of the supporters than on the track itself. Really, PC was a little ahead of Chris - partly because of the World Final, of course - but looking back, they were perhaps a lot closer in ability than we realised at the time. Steve

Okay, you didn't say that, so I apologise. However, I still find it sad that because you don't think of someone as a "team man", that you totally allow that feeling to negate all ability and achievement. You know in your heart that it isn't true, but I realise you are entitled to your opinion. Still, we've had others on this forum who thinks Carter's name should be expunged from speedway completely... Steve

Because he has freely admitted that it is not based on ability and achievement - which is what this whole thread is about - but on personal hatred. Had Bruce Penhall been on that list, he would be rated even worse. Sad but true... Steve

Excellent post. I agree about the longevity versus ability, which is why I placed Carter second on my list. Similar to your mention of Jessup's 1980 season, 1976 is the reason I gave Simmo the edge over Carter. Again, while Jessup wasn't on Sidney's list, nor was Kennett, Betts, Ashby, etc, so I don't think it was meant to be an all-encompassing comparison, just between those five. You say about meetings being more meaningful, the 70's and early 80's was an extremely difficult period for any rider, with Collins, Mauger, Olsen, Autrey, Crump, Penhall, and a host of other quality riders engaged in battle, in addition to those mentioned here. What a great era it was... That can certainly happen. However, I think it is worth noting that this fact appears to have had more affect on those who don't rate Mort as highly as the others on the list. We have already proven his worth by achievement alone, yet he never got the recognition he deserved - and still doesn't... And can you imagine how good he would have been had he been able to trap!!! Steve

You keep saying you are surprised by Morton being rated highly by others, but when you look at his achievements, you shouldn't be. The fact that he achieved more than others generally rated above him is an indication of that. Thing is, you also mention his longevity in the sport, but he really wasn't around that long. He retired at 34 before having that one season with Sheffield. Simmons, Jessup, Kennett etc were all around a lot longer. Steve

You know, I don't go to speedway any more (not easy here in the United States), and while I am one of the older generation - remembering the great times of the 60's, 70's and 80's - I retain a keen interest and watch it when I can. For me, it is about the entertainment, and the value for money. Yes, there are some strange rules (as there always have been), but I can live with those if I am getting pleasure from watching. I don't like guests, but like many others on here, I feel that they are a necessary evil. Having said that, there should NEVER be a need for a guest for a non-heat-leader, and certainly no more than two guests in any team. I have no problem with allowing extra r/r rides, as they at least taken by members of "your" team. I am fine with a limit on team averages, as long as the averages are realistic; you should never have to dump a long-time team member to stay within the limit, or worse still, see a rider forced out of a league because they are "too good", and nobody can fit them in. Not all the possible solutions are easy to implement, but these two SHOULD be. I was a lifelong Dons supporter, and it still hurts that they are gone. Like iris, I see little value putting a bunch of individuals together and calling them a "team" just to keep the name alive. As fanatical as I was about my team, I still loved travelling around as a neutral and taking in several meetings a week. Good racing and enthusiastic (and large) crowds were just as important to me as watching my team. Now, when I watch British speedway online, one - if not both - of those factors are missing. Like other forum members, I often prefer watching racing from Poland or Sweden, and that makes me sad. I have said it before, and I will say it again; it is easy to complain about the cost of going to speedway, but I feel that "value for money" is far more important. Struggling to afford a night out is one thing, but struggling to afford a night out that fails to entertain is a bigger issue. It doesn't matter how cheap a product is if the quality is not there, which means that even if it were free, people wouldn't go - and therein lay the main problem. Okay, I don't like double points OR playoffs, but they are not - and should not be - the deciding factors in whether or not people attend speedway. We should go to watch great racing, and when appropriate, support our teams. THAT is what speedway should be about. Steve

I just find it a little confusing that Sidney obviously felt that Wilson had a world final win in him? Yes, he was a great rider, but I am not sure that he was in that class. Louis - maybe - but not Willie. Thing is, it is easy to say that somebody IS good enough to win a world title - when they have won one! What about riders that WEREN'T good enough to win one - yet still did. Like Szczakiel, Muller, or Havvy, for example... Because they DID win one, does that make them better than everyone who didn't? Was Szczakiel a better rider than Plech? Was Muller better than Simmons? While it is easy to say that Morton was never going to be world champ, it is easy to say the same about Louis, Wilson, Betts, Ashby, the Boococks, Crump, both Morans, Autrey etc. No, they never did, but on their day, every single one of them WAS good enough... Steve

Grand Prix champion, BLRC champion, Inter-Continental champion, World Pairs champion, twice WTC top scorer, seven World Final appearances, and he wasn't one of the top riders in the world??? Okay... Steve

I can't believe that people are simply using the BLRC to support their claims for Morton... Yes, it was a great achievement (albeit on his home track), but is that it? And Sidney, you really think that Willie's WTC max would elevate him above Mort? Come on, let us look at what else he won; things that everyone seems to have forgotten (other than a vague mention in passing by falcace). First was the 1978 VW/Daily Mirror GP. He won the final, and overall, against Simmons, Louis, and a host of other top names. Then - and for me, THIS was the highlight of his career - there was his triumph at the 1980 Inter-Continental Final. In a meeting that was generally considered to be tougher than the World Final, Mort turned in a superb display of racing to top the list. In view of this brace of victories (which everybody else seems to ignore), along with the other achievements mentioned above, I would DEFINITELY put him no lower than third in the list. Oh, and yes, I hated Carter, but I can differentiate between "ability" and "favouritism"... 1 - Simmons 2 - Carter 3 - Morton 4 - Louis 5 - Wilson Steve

You know, a lot of the posters on here wobble on about "free speech", and are quite happy to say what they want because of that. However, when a rider exercises that right, they are instantly deemed to be be ungrateful and insulting. Of course, it's not just a speedway issue; everybody wants to have say say, although much of the time things could be worded a little differently. In some cases, things would be better unsaid. Having said that, foreign riders do not simply ride in British league speedway for "training" purposes. Yes, it is the way - it traditionally, it was the way - to hone one's skills by competing in Britain. With any sport, one of the best ways to improve and develop is to compete against quality opposition, but let's not forget that applies to the British too, but apparently, British riders don't seem to "owe" British speedway anything, while foreigners do... The other fact worth mentioning is that people seem to think that speedway riders simply exist for the benefit of the supporters". No, they don't "risk their lives to entertain the public"; they do to earn a living. It is their job. It is a dangerous job, but nobody FORCES them to race. Riders take up speedway because they WANT TO RACE MOTORCYCLES, and it's nice to have a job you love. As it is their job, a speedway rider has - and in my opinion, SHOULD have - the right to choose when and where they race. Please don't misunderstand me, I am not talking about breaking contracts or stuff like that, but they are no different to the rest of us. If somebody offered you more money and better perks than you get from your current employer, why wouldn't you take it - or at least consider it? A little loyalty doesn't hurt, but It is the individual's choice to race when and where he wants, and for whom he wants. If he feels a change of track - or country - would be beneficial, then good luck to him (and again, no, that doesn't mean he should be slagging off anyone). If a rider wants to retire from the sport altogether for another job - a la Bruce Penhall - or for whatever reason, we shouldn't question it, let alone hate someone for it. Steve

See, that is why we have problems; some people will take statements like that as a challenge... The same reason why nothing is "foolproof", as a true fool will always find a way... Steve