chunky

...and back to four wheels we go...

I believe you are correct...

As I said, I was being pedantic, and I was having a bit of fun too! Now, this is what I was talking about earlier... I love numbers and statistics, and I love logic, reason, and fact. This is pure logic, reason, and fact, and PROVES why averages drop when there are fewer teams and riders. Yes, it is extreme. No, it would never happen. However, it shows the effect. Riders can still ride at EXACTLY the same standard, but their averages will not reflect that. I know that Bwitcher and Orion will get this, and I think you will get it too. O hope Sidney will, but he has to stop letting opinion (without any logical grounds for justification) get in the way of fact. This isn't the first time I've done something like this, either! A while back, I PROVED that it was possible for a rider to win EVERY GP - yet still not finish in the Top eight of the GP standings at the end of the season! People still argue that I am wrong on that, but I have ABSOLUTE PROOF. Anyway... Here is an example – albeit extreme – of how fewer teams and riders can – and will – reduce averages. The thing to remember is that speedway averages are not only influenced by a rider’s own ability, but by the ability of those around him. Ability can only be judged compared to those averages around him (and in that particular format and numbers of teams and riders) – not by another rider’s 20 years earlier or 20 years later. As I said, this is extreme, nut it is the easiest way to prove things, particularly using the old 18-heat, 6-rider team format (but still using the 4-ride CMA – we can all relate to that). Now, the basics are : The league has 16 teams Top average rider rides at No.1, second highest at No.3, third highest at No.5, fourth highest at No.2, fifth highest at No.4, and sixth highest at No.6 No.1’s only drops points to HOME No.1 No.3’s only drop points to No.1’s and HOME No.3 No.5’s only drop points to No.1’s and No.3’s, and HOME No.5 And so on… This means that all matches will finish like this. HOME AWAY 1 – 3 3 3 3 3 3 – 18 1 – 2 3 3 2 3 3 – 16 2 – 1 1 1 1 1 1 - 6 2 - 0 1 1 0 1 1 - 4 3 – 3 2 3 3 2 3 – 16 3 – 2 3 2 2 3 2 – 14 4 – 1 0 1 1 0 1 - 4 4 – 0 1 0 0 1 0 - 2 5 – 3 2 2 3 2 2 – 14 5 – 2 2 2 2 2 2 – 12 6 – 1 0 0 1 0 0 - 2 6 – 0 0 0 0 0 0 - 0 So, all riders at a particular number will finish with an identical average (and identical record), namely No.1 – 11.33, No.3 – 10.00, No.5 – 8.67, No.2 – 3.33, No.4 – 2.00, No.6 – 0.67. The following season, the league is reduced from 16 teams to 8, and all second strings drop down a division. The league is now much stronger, and consists of all the best riders. Each team in the new eight man league will consist of two old No.1’s, two old No.3’s, and two old No.’5’s. The old No.1’s will ride at 1 and 3, the old No.3’s will ride at 5 and 2, and the old No.5’s will ride at 4 and 6. All results finish exactly the same as the previous season, but look what happens... All No.1’s will again record an average of 11.33 All No.3’s (formerly No.1’s) will drop from 11.33 to 10.00 All No.5’s (formerly No.3’s) will drop from 10.00 to 8.67 All No.2’s (formerly No.3’s) will drop from 10.00 to 3.33 All No.4’s (formerly No.5’s) will drop from 8.67 to 2.00 All No.6’s (formerly No.5’s) will drop from 8.67 to 0.67 The riders are all riding at exactly the same level as the did the previous year, but they are simply facing top riders more often than they were, and that is the result of having fewer teams, fewer riders, and a more level playing field. You wanna talk about having fun??? Steve

Being even more pedantic, it doesn't matter whether the heat leaders are on track, or on paper. The thing to remember is that a seven man speedway team(certainly from years gone by) has three heat leaders, two second strings, and two reserves. The actual quality of each of those seven riders was irrelevant. Averages were pretty irrelevant too, as far as team makeup, except for the reserves - who had to be the lowest two averages in the team. Steve

Never knew that? There were TWO Dave Jessups who rode for Wimbledon! Steve

Hmmm... You beat me to it! Just waiting to see Sidney's response to that. I have a cunning plan, so watch this space, folks... Steve

Yeah, that was special - along with the sound of 'em revving under the green light!

Funny, isn't it? There are probably posters on the BSF who didn't even know he rode in the BL! Seriously, while he wasn't "great", he wasnt anywhere near as dire as most of the names mentioned on here... Steve

That is exactly why I didn't mention him; he has hardly been "forgotten! Steve

All of those have already been mentioned too! Steve

Remember, Doug, I did mention about the AMA Hall of Fame and museum just outside Columbus, Ohio. I still haven't been there yet, but it is only a couple of hours for me. I definitely need to get there this year! They have speedway and board-racing bikes and sections, and I don't know what else. I will let you all know when I have been... Steve

When I made that post about Wolves riders earlier, I was also thinking about Helminen and Frandsen...

Okay, thanks for the clarification! See, old age is catching up on me, but I knew it was something like that! I was at both too; thirty-five years ago - scary... Steve

At Wolverhampton, they tried Jerzy Kowalski (who tragically died after a crash later in 1978), Hans Christensen, and Knud Ellegard. Someone given a little more time at Monmore without really showing anything was Leif Berlin. Steve

Don't forget, Ernst Bogh also appeared for Leicester in 1976, along with Grzegorz Szczepanik and the almost-as-ineffective Pepe Teromaa. Again, I think Teromaa could have been okay given more time. Steve

Yeah, the Tigers have had their share of mediocrity over the years! Iris, you say you don't remember them? You may have blinked; they both had a British career that lasted a whopping two races! Jan Zabik was a little better; he averaged over 4, and managed a maximum. Steve

I honestly can't remember if it was three 5-1's in the last four heats, but you definitely got 5-1's in the last two! The next night, we came to Cowley and got a last-heat 5-1 to a draw! Steve

It is not a crusade against gustix; it is a crusade against stupidity and self-importance. It is difficult to get over it when he responds to a reaction with even more inanity... As I said, I have had my issues with iris. The thing with gustix is that he complains if others deviate all, but it's okay for him to hijack almost every thread and redirect to what he wants when it is invariably non-speedway related. I get it, I get under your skin. GET OVER IT... Steve

Again, how many times are you going to tell us that you haven't been to speedway since 2005? Your first sentence, however, does not qualify for inclusion on this thread; it references the FUTURE of British speedway - if indeed there is one... Steve

Just thought of another one - and it's another Eastbourne one : Rene Christiansen. A 1.93 average from ten meetings in 1983... Steve

1) I went to White City once - for speedway - and there was a bloke jumping from a tower into a small bath of water. He was a "participating guest", so should I start another forum on here called "Stuntmen and Escapologists"? 2) Please note that this is the "BSF"; it is not the "BFTF" or the "ANZSF". "British Speedway" is four blokes on 500cc bikes running on methanol... Steve

I used to look forward to them too! Funny thing is, so many of the names you mention, I was close to including! Skretting, Bengtsson, Steman, Langli, Davidsson, Blondy, and Gudmunsson were all on my short-list. I'd totally forgotten about Deser and Klinge. Steve

I thought the same, but that appears to be his correct (or full) name. If you recall, last week, we were talking about Leonard Raba, and I said that the only legitimate point Raba scored was when he beat Franz Kreimoser in a challenge against Reading. That was Kreimoser's only meeting. I did think about Adi, but he was better. Steve

I'm not a financial expert by any means, but I followed everything from the initial post. That was the thing, you have access to "records", but without a detailed breakdown, it is very difficult to gauge each individual situation. Even without doing anything fraudulent - or even devious - it is usually possible to make the books read they way you want, based on a particular time-frame. With regard to Ray Stadia's comment about football, I am sure that many of the clubs (even smaller clubs) deal in much larger amounts than speedway when it comes to cash flow. They may be in the red right now, but they have 200 grand due in next week! Look at my own team, AFC Wimbledon. I was reading how, if we can just beat Millwall in the FA Cup at the weekend, that will earn us close to a million! Of course, that involves a number of factors, but for a small and poor League One team like us, one win against a team like Millwall can make us that sort of money? We know that speedway clubs can't be dealing in anywhere near those amounts... Steve

Now I'm really confused??? You claim your speedway memories are "reserved strictly" for Speedwayplus? Then why are you on a speedway (or BFTF) forum where we "share our memories"? More to the point, why do you think a SPEEDWAY forum is the place to share your memories of motorsports OTHER than speedway? Genuine questions... Steve