chunky

Don't forget John Arlott, Brian Johnson, Henry Blofeld etc... Steve

Quite honestly, it's nothing new. A lot of speedway clubs - and even smaller football clubs - have requested for fans to help with things, whether it's painting and fixing things, or just clearing up trash. Nothing wrong with that at all; if you want to help, fine, and if you don't want to help, fine. Not like anybody is forcing you to do anything. With the fragile financial status of most clubs, it makes sense. Even if they weren't in that state, I would have no problem in helping. It can actually feel good to be involved, and to make a difference. Give me free drinks and biccies, and I'll be there! Steve

Too late for Dowdall; I don't recall him riding after the mid-70's. It was 1974 when he beat Eric Boocock in a second-half at Plough Lane. Steve

I do not detest you. I have often defended you, and I have given you friendly advice. I don't believe you are stupid - I have often said that - but to be that far off when you are adding FOUR simple numbers, does seem bizarre. And you did that for all three teams... The reason I wondered if you were seeking attention - and I do apologize if that truly wasn't your intention - was that "knowing my bad luck on the BSF" comment. Your problems on the forum have nothing to do with "bad luck", and the crazy totals you came up with here have nothing to do with bad luck. Your decision to even contemplate making an unnecessary (and seemingly pity-seeking) comment like that was exceedingly ill-founded. Steve

NOT EVEN CLOSE! I don't think you can claim "bad luck" either; bad addition, bad eyesight etc... Or are you seeking attention/pity by being that far off? The totals are: West Ham 113, Lea Bridge 102, High Beech 96. Steve

In 1930 the "Essex County Championship" was decided by total points scored, and was won by West Ham. Match results were : West Ham 31, High Beech 22 West Ham 34, Lea Bridge 20 Lea Bridge 30, High Beech 18 Lea Bridge 30, West Ham 18 High Beech 24, West Ham 30 High Beech 32, Lea Bridge 22 Steve

Absolutely. It goes back to what we were saying earlier about the nights when Mauger, Olsen, or Penhall came to town; we had been looking forward to those for weeks! One of the other factors you mention that destroy the aura is familiarity. We would generally only see those riders once - maybe twice - a season. Smaller leagues and multiple matches against the same teams means they become a "part of the furniture" so to speak, and they lose that aura. Steve

If you want to talk about Chris Morton, it's hard to beat his ride against Gundersen and Muller in the 1981 WTC Final at Olching... Steve

I'm sure you know my thoughts on this, and WHY I asked the question... Steve

In fairness to dear old Bryan, and to norbold, of course, did either of them state categorically that Clem Cort appeared in 1929 Southern League matches for Wimbledon and Harringay, or did they simply state that he appeared for those teams in 1929. If only the latter, then where did the claim that they appeared in Southern League matches for those teams originate? Did gustix simply assume that he appeared in Southern League matches, or was there any indication that he did? If there wasn't, then gustix could be considered more than the "messenger"... Similar to Mark Cherry. I am happy to state that he rode for Birmingham in 1976, but I cannot interpret that as him riding in the BL in 1976... Steve

The problem is that so many people just see things in black and white, whereas in most situations, there are grey areas that apply to many facets of that situation. One of the biggest issues I have with modern sport (and trust me, American sports are the worst) is that they try to explain and justify EVERYTHING (including probability) by using figures and stats. Look at darts. Percentage shots (having two beds to aim at instead of just one) are inflexible. Points-per-dart averages are also, with the ONLY factor involved being what you throw yourself, but speedway CMA's are affected by many outside factors, such as opponents, gate positions, mechanical issues etc. Having said that, trying to explain to an idiot how you can win at darts despite having a lower average, isn't easy... In speedway, a similar situation used to occur in World Championships. A rider could win every race in every world championship round, yet drop one point in the final, and he ended up second. Another rider could scrape through each time, have a good night at the final, and he was World Champ! That is why I find the SGP's much fairer... This leads me to ask one question that I have been thinking about during this discussion (and I would love to see everybody's answers and reasoning)... Which was a greater achievement; Hans Nielsen winning the 1986 World Championship, or his incredible 1986 BL record away from home? Steve

Researching a little more, I found another resource (a pretty comprehensive account of the early leagues, that was published on compact disc), that as far as the 1929 Southern League is concerned, shows no trace of Clem Cort riding for Harringay and Wimbledon. Steve

There really are so many factors that people don't take into account, and much of it is personal perspective. The same as when we look back and remember just how good the racing was back in the day, but when we look at videos now, we see that it really wasn't any different to what we see now. As far as the statistics, I do love them. The one thing I will say is that numbers don't lie, but they don't always tell the true story BEHIND the numbers... Steve

I know he appeared for White City in a Southern League match at Harringay on September 21... Steve

And this is quite possibly the worst post you have ever posted... To say that you cannot assess the ability of a rider when you have never seen him ride is absolutely ridiculous. I would have seen him more, definitely, but I can recall seeing Fundin TWICE; once in the 1969 World Final, and the other, the following year in the WTC final. Can I make an accurate assessment of Fundin based on those two meetings? Hell no. Can I make an accurate assessment of Fundin based on results, records, and reports from the previous 15 or so years? Hell yes! To claim anything else is totally laughable. Steve

What is worrying is that so many people seem mathematically challenged these days. It's not just that they don't understand it, but because they don't understand it, they don't believe it. Simple mathematics is generally - well - simple! More than that, it tends to be consistent and reliable - until people start adding unnecessary variables. Without the variables, even though the actual answers may differ (and here, I did state that the example was extreme and unlikely - though not impossible) the concept and the processes used to reach that conclusion remain constant. That could be one of the reasons I love darts and speedway so much; they both revolve around numbers! Steve

Popularity means absolutely nothing now - and won't in the future as far as Wimbledon is concerned. Why is football so popular, yet is constantly slammed on the forum?

Hmmmm.. That would have sounded great on our version too!!! Steve

Not at all, but you constantly redirect threads about speedway to your love of cars - on a speedway forum...

Damn Steve Roberts, you read that quickly!!!

...and back to four wheels we go...

I believe you are correct...

As I said, I was being pedantic, and I was having a bit of fun too! Now, this is what I was talking about earlier... I love numbers and statistics, and I love logic, reason, and fact. This is pure logic, reason, and fact, and PROVES why averages drop when there are fewer teams and riders. Yes, it is extreme. No, it would never happen. However, it shows the effect. Riders can still ride at EXACTLY the same standard, but their averages will not reflect that. I know that Bwitcher and Orion will get this, and I think you will get it too. O hope Sidney will, but he has to stop letting opinion (without any logical grounds for justification) get in the way of fact. This isn't the first time I've done something like this, either! A while back, I PROVED that it was possible for a rider to win EVERY GP - yet still not finish in the Top eight of the GP standings at the end of the season! People still argue that I am wrong on that, but I have ABSOLUTE PROOF. Anyway... Here is an example – albeit extreme – of how fewer teams and riders can – and will – reduce averages. The thing to remember is that speedway averages are not only influenced by a rider’s own ability, but by the ability of those around him. Ability can only be judged compared to those averages around him (and in that particular format and numbers of teams and riders) – not by another rider’s 20 years earlier or 20 years later. As I said, this is extreme, nut it is the easiest way to prove things, particularly using the old 18-heat, 6-rider team format (but still using the 4-ride CMA – we can all relate to that). Now, the basics are : The league has 16 teams Top average rider rides at No.1, second highest at No.3, third highest at No.5, fourth highest at No.2, fifth highest at No.4, and sixth highest at No.6 No.1’s only drops points to HOME No.1 No.3’s only drop points to No.1’s and HOME No.3 No.5’s only drop points to No.1’s and No.3’s, and HOME No.5 And so on… This means that all matches will finish like this. HOME AWAY 1 – 3 3 3 3 3 3 – 18 1 – 2 3 3 2 3 3 – 16 2 – 1 1 1 1 1 1 - 6 2 - 0 1 1 0 1 1 - 4 3 – 3 2 3 3 2 3 – 16 3 – 2 3 2 2 3 2 – 14 4 – 1 0 1 1 0 1 - 4 4 – 0 1 0 0 1 0 - 2 5 – 3 2 2 3 2 2 – 14 5 – 2 2 2 2 2 2 – 12 6 – 1 0 0 1 0 0 - 2 6 – 0 0 0 0 0 0 - 0 So, all riders at a particular number will finish with an identical average (and identical record), namely No.1 – 11.33, No.3 – 10.00, No.5 – 8.67, No.2 – 3.33, No.4 – 2.00, No.6 – 0.67. The following season, the league is reduced from 16 teams to 8, and all second strings drop down a division. The league is now much stronger, and consists of all the best riders. Each team in the new eight man league will consist of two old No.1’s, two old No.3’s, and two old No.’5’s. The old No.1’s will ride at 1 and 3, the old No.3’s will ride at 5 and 2, and the old No.5’s will ride at 4 and 6. All results finish exactly the same as the previous season, but look what happens... All No.1’s will again record an average of 11.33 All No.3’s (formerly No.1’s) will drop from 11.33 to 10.00 All No.5’s (formerly No.3’s) will drop from 10.00 to 8.67 All No.2’s (formerly No.3’s) will drop from 10.00 to 3.33 All No.4’s (formerly No.5’s) will drop from 8.67 to 2.00 All No.6’s (formerly No.5’s) will drop from 8.67 to 0.67 The riders are all riding at exactly the same level as the did the previous year, but they are simply facing top riders more often than they were, and that is the result of having fewer teams, fewer riders, and a more level playing field. You wanna talk about having fun??? Steve

Being even more pedantic, it doesn't matter whether the heat leaders are on track, or on paper. The thing to remember is that a seven man speedway team(certainly from years gone by) has three heat leaders, two second strings, and two reserves. The actual quality of each of those seven riders was irrelevant. Averages were pretty irrelevant too, as far as team makeup, except for the reserves - who had to be the lowest two averages in the team. Steve

Never knew that? There were TWO Dave Jessups who rode for Wimbledon! Steve