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Both Biggs and Hunter could be classed in that category of "what if???" Steve

Can't argue with that - with the possible exception of Plech. Steve

All of the riders here were very talented. Although Middleton had one very good season at Oxford, I would place still place Thomsen above him on the strength of his record at international level, particularly Gothenburg in '77. Both, though, could be considered under-achievers. I know Plech has a couple of World Final rostrums behind him, but I am still not totally convinced as he never pulled up any trees in the BL. Looking at some of the comments here, I think another worthy contender for a spot (based on all-time) would be dear old Jimmy Gooch. What about Simon Wigg??? Or perhaps Mike Broadbank? Steve

Very sad... One of the "old school".

Wow... Reading this gave me a really weird feeling. 1979 doesn't seem that long ago to me, but of the four riders you mentioned, Middlo is the only one still with us. Really sad and thought-provoking... Steve

I still have a couple of programmes too, but they are in storage. I really have to go and get all my stuff soon... Oh, and I also played darts at the Granby Halls once, when we had a major youth tournament. That shows how long ago it was!!! Steve

And Rohan, Jye, Layne, Danyon, Arran, and Dakota aren't??? I remember when speedway riders were called Norman, Harry, Bert, and Fred... Steve

Again, you claimed that I had stated - or at least implied - certain things, which I had not. No, it is not a case of me not respecting what you say, but yes, I do get pissy when I am accused of saying something I clearly did not. I also stand by my reaction to your comment about Lee needing Penhall around to motivate him. Yes, that is a remarkably bizarre claim, and if that really is true, then Lee is not the rider I thought he was... Steve

Closely followed on the BSF by "Tia"...

My "tone is not good"? Look at some of the stuff YOU have said here, and I haven't twisted anything. You said my post was "one of the craziest" because I didn't rate Sanders alongside a handful of legendary riders. You said I stated that Sanders as an "also-ran", which I didn't. You asked if I had even seen Sanders in that time period, because if I had, I would "know"... Nice tone there, eh? You said that Sanders was "obviously improving" - which he wasn't... Is that twisting things around to make you "look the villain"??? Please, let's back to the script... Steve

Not at all. You said my post was crazy because I stated that Sanders was an "also-ran" - when I never said anything of the sort...

Collins was still in that era with Sanders, and he had a first and a second in that period. What I am saying is that Billy never reached the level of those I mentioned, even though he was competing against them. Steve

Aapparently...

Please point out where I stated that he was an "also-ran". I stated that he was a "world-class rider". I stated that he was "a contender", meaning that he was regularly there or thereabouts, and on his day, could beat anyone. He was somebody that you wouldn't be surprised to see on a rostrum. That does not put him in the highest bracket alongside Penhall, Lee, Gundersen, or Collins. Yes, of course I saw him - several times - and I still treasure the photo I took of him and Simmo in the Wimbledon car park. I never said he had not improved, but I do not agree that he was still improving. I feel that he had reached his peak, and no, that doesn't mean I think he was "past his best". As stated previously, an 11.53 average over four matches means little. Stefan Salomonsson was pushing an 11-point average at the start of the 1979 season, and had beaten the current Top 3 in the world on their own tracks. Your point is? Oh, and Zenon Plech was on the rostrum twice; does that put him in the same class as multiple world champions - or even Sanders? You really have to stop getting offended when people don't agree with your opinions, particularly when they use reason and logic on the way to drawing a fair and well-balanced conclusion. Steve

I agree. We've seen some silly posts on here, and quite honestly, that wasn't one of them. However, that was quite possibly the most bizarre one I've ever seen... I was a Sanders fan, he was a world-class rider, and he was a contender, but I would never consider him a realistic threat to the few at the very top. Steve

IF!!! IF!!! I think Penhall would have won more, but we will never know because he didn't hang around. How do we know he would have kept Lee motivated? Yes, it's fun to speculate, but opinions mean absolutely nothing. Particularly with this era, there are more "if's" than ever, and for every "if" leading to one possible conclusion, there is at least one countering any argument. Think about it. If Penhall... If Carter... If Lee... If Sigalos... Even throw in : If Collins... If Sanders... Steve

Conjecture...

My exact point. It's incredible to think how ONE small change would have affected so much later. What if Peter Craven had broken the tapes in what turned out to be his final race? That affects the World Championship for years to come, not just the results, but even qualification, because we now have an extra person in the mix. Digressing slightly for a moment, here's the effect it has... I am sitting here writing this in Loveland, Ohio, because my dad's car wouldn't start - on the morning of March 15, 1971! Sounds crazy, doesn't it? Had the car started, he wouldn't have had to ride his motorbike to work, and he wouldn't have been hit by a car on the way home, smashing his leg. Had that not happened, he would have carried on playing cricket, would never have taken darts seriously and turned professional, and I would never have taken up darts as a career. Had I not played darts, I wouldn't have travelled to the US, and then moved here! Thing is, now think of what MIGHT have happened. I would have stayed in the UK. I could have been driving to a speedway meeting, and got in a car crash with, say, Gary Havelock in 1992. He might have been injured badly enough to stop him qualifying for the 1992 World Final. I know it sounds crazy, but one small change in my own personal history can have a monumental effect, not just on my life, but on the lives of others... Steve

I was there too, and I really can't argue with your assessment. In 50-plus years of watching speedway, I've seen some dominant performances, but Muller beats the lot... Steve

Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing yesterday! While speculation can be fun, people get so focused on the "what ifs?, which mean absolutely nothing. History and fact is based on what DID happen, not what COULD have happened. Sure : 1)What if Peter Craven, Kenny Carter, Billy Sanders, Tommy Jansson, and Erik Gundersen hadn't had their careers ended so abruptly? 2) What if Peter Collins, Sverre Harrfeldt, Ronnie Moore, and Torbjorn Harrysson hadn't suffered their serious injuries? 3) What if Dave Jessup (throw in Gundersen and Carter in 1981 too) had been able to keep his bikes going for five World Final races? The answer to all of those is, "WE DON'T KNOW! Itt is all conjecture. Let's try to answer some of those, though... Craven and Moore carry on through the 1960's - maybe Mauger wouldn't have been World Champion from 1968 to 1970. Collins didn't break his leg in 1977, and Mauger would lose another title. Let's look at some other "what ifs?", and far from me being flippant, change just one small historical fact, and it can throw the future into total chaos. 1) What if Edward Jancarz had come to England a few years earlier? 2) What if Bruce Penhall hadn't retired? 3) What if Freddie Williams hadn't ridden for Wembley? 4) What if Ronnie Moore hadn't quit speedway for a while in order to race on four wheels? 5) What if Ivan Mauger had broken his arm when he fell in the run-off against Szczakiel? 6) What if David Biles and David Tyler hadn't decided to walk out on speedway? Could they have been World Champions? Conjecture, and it is what it is... Steve

Okay, in view of the distinctions stated, here are my three teams : All-Time Ivan Mauger, Barry Briggs, Ronnie Moore Vic Huxley, Vic Duggan This is where it gets tough, but I will plump for Tommy Jansson and Split Waterman. At Their Peak Barry Briggs, Ronnie Moore, Vic Huxley Olle Nygren, Geoff Mardon Ron How, Tommy Jansson Those I Saw (for the Dons) Ronnie Moore, Barry Briggs, Olle Nygren Trevor Hedge, Tommy Jansson Edward Jancarz, Roger Johns (not as consistent as some of the others, but he put in some incredible rides). Steve

Yup, and Sverre broke his arm when Peter Murray took him off right in front of us... Funny, I saw on another thread where you said you were at the Lokeren Memorial Meeting, and I was there too! There was something special about Custom House (including the breeze coming off the river), and I do miss the place. Steve

Yeah, I was there for Christer's debut in 1970, when he scored 7 points in the main body of the team (which wasn't too strong). He maintained that form all year, and ended with a near 8-point average. His worst season was his last, at Hackney, and still averaged over 7 1/2. Steve

That's why it is laughable to see comments like "it's a lot easier to win a world title now", as if Woffinden has some kind of advantage. If it is easier for Tai, it is easier for everybody else. If it is tougher for Tai, it is tougher for everybody else. All the competitors in the same event pretty much go in with the same advantages and the same disadvantages, whatever system you use. Steve

Tough when you can't find a place for Hurri-ken! Steve