chunky

Dangerous question to ask on the BSF!!! I think some of the people here have a list of answers on the fridge...

We've actually covered comparisons with PC in more depth on other threads; this one just seemed to devolve into Lee vs Woffinden... Funny thing, when we look back to the '70's and early '80's, we've discussed previously how there were just a small handful of riders (PC, Mauger, Olsen etc) way ahead of the rest. With a GP system, that would just have increased the gulf between the elite and the rest.

As much as I hate to, sometimes we have to generalise. As I have said before, Lee could - and SHOULD - have done more with his career, in which case he could be considered the best-ever Brit - even now. It's scary to think how young he still was when his career at the very top level finished. Even worse, he could have already had a couple more World Titles by that time. Fact is, he didn't...

It is crazy. Most of us who reckon Tai is better are happy to concede that Lee was more talented. Those who reckon Lee was better will concede nothing, because they "know". I stated that Lee was perhaps the most talented rider in speedway history, yet I was accused of considering him an "also-ran"! See the difference in the two camps? It's true that people can't (or won't) differentiate between BEST and FAVOURITE, or simply want to rewrite the dictionary... Steve

More fool you! Never say they can't get any worse; some people will take that as a challenge... Steve

You know, I like Vaculik too. He seems to be the "forgotten man" when talking about title contenders, but the guy can ride. Showing some good consistency too. Zmarzlik is brilliant, but he is always riding "on the edge", and you always get the feeling that he could come a cropper at any minute. Steve

Well, you learn more from your defeats than you do from your victories, so Bomber should come out of the meeting a genius!!! Did I say that???

Rosco???????????????????????????????????

No??? REALLY??? Not in British speedway...

Don't forget, he was on a "bike that doesn't have brakes", so apparently once the bike has started moving, it won't slow down or stop until it hits something...

That's why I said "most". You and I are a little more accepting, and of course, all of those you mention I do rate among the all-time greats. Along with Cordy Milne.... Unfortunately, people get too bogged down in two things : 1) "I didn't see him, so I can't include him!" 2) "It was a lot better in my day!" Um, that's why we have records and results so we CAN make comparisons. Clouting was good, but I think Richard Pettman was better. Well, his hair was, anyway! Steve

Just checked the history pages at the excellent speedway.org, and that confirms it. Sam was on 12 after 4, and Havvy was third in his fourth ride, putting him on 8 alongside Gollob, Nielsen, and Louis. Steve

Thing is, while titles aren't everything (certainly not National Championships anyway), they are a guide at the highest level. Therefore, Woffinden's record is far superior to that of any British rider, which is why we believe he is the best. Craven won less, but as I said, he can be considered a genuine contender for the moniker of "Best Brit". Lee's record is worse, and his self-destructive streak and poor temperament means that realistically, he is not in the same class as Woffinden or Craven. Just because he had more talent and more potential doesn't mean that he was better. It's not just a case of people looking at riders from their own era. Most on here will class Mauger and Rickardsson as the best of all-time, with Fundin also up there. Steve

Craven is a genuine contender, with two wins and two thirds, in a career that wasn't cut short by his own frailties and poor decisions. As others have said, Lee's self-destruction weighs heavily against him, as there is more to being an all-time great than talent and potential.

I was deliberately keeping quiet about Buzz...

I might just as well, because we can't get any sense out of you... You STATED that. Am I wrong?

That's YOUR opinion!

It was your opinion that I considered Michael Lee an "also-ran". That was clearly an opinion that was WRONG, as there is no fact behind that claim whatsoever.

That wasn't just aimed at Midland Red. You're still not getting it! Everybody has an opinion, that's fine. However, if you want your opinion to stand up against opinions to the contrary, then it is a good idea to use facts to support that opinion. Three World Championships, a silver, a bronze, plus a scintillating near-perfect display in the 2018 SoN Final are what some of us use to support the case for Tai. Saying, "I saw them both ride" does nothing. For years, I considered Simmo a better rider than Chris Morton. I saw them both ride many times, and from what I recall, Simmo had achieved more at the highest level. Last year, we were discussing the merits of both, and it was brought to my attention that Mort's achievements were actually superior - by quite a long way. It appears that I was using just the one season - 1976 - to cloud my judgment. I am grateful that somebody used FACT to support their claims, and PROVE to me that I was, in fact, WRONG. Yes, opinions CAN be wrong, as they cannot trump FACT.

It is also a fact that a GP series drastically reduces the luck factor. A series requires consistent performances throughout a whole season. Jerzy Szczakiel became World Champion after completing just six races. I have never claimed that was "luck", because he rode well on the night, but it was a lot easier to win a World Championship by having one good meeting.

They don't get it, do they?

Correct; Pocking. Vojens was in 88 and 94 - the very last World Final. I just thought it hilarious that this thread was about a recent meeting at Vojens, and when asking about World Finals that still had a track, Vojens wasn't mentioned!!! Do they still race at Pocking? Edit : Just checked, and Pocking is still active, so there is another one. Steve

Um, Vojens???

Using facts to substantiate an opinion is vastly different from using baseless opinions to substantiate an opinion...

Strange, isn't it? I haven't heard you whining constantly this year about how Madsen was "spoon fed a place without earning it". If you think Tai was "lucky", then that same criticism can be levelled at EVERY wild card. By winning the title when he was entered as a wild card, it proves that they were right to pick him, and that he WAS worthy of a place in the field. Steve