chunky

Just how much influence should league averages have? I'm thinking of how good the Boococks were on the domestic scene, but not major threats on the international front. You say about comparing Lee with Craven or Collins, but again, should Havvy's dominance in '92 outshine Loram's more consistent performances?

Interesting, Parker above Lee? That should provoke some discussion...

Fair point. Again, I have no issue when people use reason and facts to substantiate their views...

Have to agree with that, and probably put Williams ahead of Price, seeing as he won twice as many titles as his team-mate.

That's what really irks me! If you are going to get rid of something so you can reuse the land for something else, that's fine, but to just rush into demolition, and then leave it sitting for years, that's crazy... Steve

Never did the fish and chips, but I went up there a few times when I had a Wednesday off. One particular year, there were a large group of us flying over to compete in the Canadian Open. Everybody else flew out on the Wednesday, but I went up to watch the Dons and flew out the next day! Now, that's dedication! Steve

Never saw him, so he doesn't count!

I agree with you 100%. As I have said, considering the quality of the opposition, those three WTC maximums aren't as impressive as they first seem, but when you look it PC's record, he HAS to be above Lee. As we have said, the fact that PC was not a multi-world champion was down to bad luck and circumstances not of his own doing. The fact that Lee wasn't a multi-world champion was down to his own failings, and it is those failings that cause him to be rated below Collins. Of course, it is DIFFICULT to compare any sportspersons from different eras, but that is why we have records. For Sidney to suggest that we can simply dismiss someone just because we didn't see them at their best - or maybe didn't even see them at all - is ludicrous. I never saw Fundin anywhere near his best, but when you look at riders in the 20th century, NOBODY can deny that Mauger and Fundin were the best two... You can't just say, "He was better - I know, because I saw him ride..."

Gustix seems to think so...

I know Les definitely retired. I never really knew so much about Sandy or his career. Funny thing is - and this is probably going back almost 30 years - but I saw a photo of Sandy in Darts World magazine! Every month, the Essex page would include a pic of a team in their local league, and one month, it was Sandy's team. Steve

Plus, people forget just how good a World Final record he had, considering he just "toyed" with speedway...

Thank you so much! If anyone noticed, it was going to be you!

And? We are just discussing the world champions here, and "ifs" don't really enter into it. As I said though, as good as Carter was, he was never at Lee's level. Of course, the big similarities were that they both had bags of potential, and they both possessed the same self-destructive tendencies.

16 1/2 years on, and does anyone in British speedway still have the last night fun and games? In fact, does anyone still have fun at British speedway?

Wwith Caxton speedway not too far behind...

Perhaps they didn't have any info available at the time? Steve

Yeah, tough to choose between the last two. Havvy had the one year of dominance, but Loram was more consistent.

You mean, give it time to heel? But who will foot the bill?

Can't say recall seeing that, and I have probably seen most Dons' team pics! After Ted Brine came Vic Goodden, I think... Steve

Ah, you've hit the toenail on the head!

Hmmm... Scary thought!

I think I am being far from being "unco-operative"...

Taking things one by one... 1) Lee was better than Carter anyway. 2) He still got a duck egg in the BLRC. 3) The Pride of the East was on his home track. 4) Nielsen was nowhere near the level he was to achieve in later years. When we say that somebody SHOULD have won the world final, it is because they made a made a mistake (Mauger 73), suffered an e/f (Jessup), were injured (Collins 77), or got screwed (Collins 75). Being the best rider on current form is a lot different from being the best rider on the night...

Thing is, if you are THAT good (which PC was), you should be able to ride ALL tracks! That is why I would definitely put Collins and Lee ahead of Tommy Price, and even Freddie Williams. You mentioned 1978 also, Steve, and I deliberately left that one out as PC wasn't actually in the final. It is a great point that he probably would have had three world titles, and quite possibly a fourth, but for idiots, injury, and sabotage. Lee could - and probably should - have had more, but his problems were all self-inflicted. That fact alone keeps him well below PC in the ratings.

As has been mentioned previously Steve, it is easy to attach too much significance to PC's record in the World Cup. Three gold medals, and three maximums, against vastly inferior opponents (Michanek was the only true world class rival in those finals) really shouldn't be unexpected. Apart from Mich, the best riders in those events were his team-mates! Plus, the finals didn't feature Mauger or Olsen. However, you are correct when it comes to the pairs finals. Sidney - don't forget that Collins should also have won in 1975, but for those idiots who took it upon themselves to water the track. When you talk about Lee, there is no way you can say he "should" have won in 83. Muller was the best rider on the night, and it's not like he had a fall or Jessup-style e/f that ruined his chances. Steve