chunky

Well, St. Helier is the housing estate, which runs from Morden town centre to the other side of the hospital. It basically runs alphabetically, from roads like Abbotsbury and Aberconway, to where we lived (Welbeck) and others like Whitland and and Wigmore. St. Helier station is in Green Lane. The St. Helier Arms (played darts for them) was at The Circle, the other side of the roundabout from where my grandparents lived. There was a pub, The Rose, on the roundabout at Rosehill. The road that goes from the roundabout towards Sutton is called Rosehill, and that area is just known as Rosehill. If you go down Wrythe Lane from Rosehill (past the hospital) you come to Wrythe Green (by Carshalton FC). That area is The Wrythe. I don't know any actual boundaries or anything.

Where the hell do you live then? I had no idea you were a local? I was born in St. Helier and my dad died in there.

Where I lived, the church of St. Peter's served the Parish of St. Helier, which covers parts of Carshalton and Morden. There is no town/village/place called St. Helier. There are local areas called Rosehill and The Wrythe. They are often shown on maps, but there is no town/village/place called either Rosehill or The Wrythe.

Nope. It's in Berkshire near Wokingham. John's original post mentions the buses from Reading and Bracknell.

I couldn't remember the year, but yes, wheelies were banned for a while. Caused a big stink...

The Defunct Speedway website is not a forum. I can see why comments on a forum would be rejected, but would they do that to a standard website? Would Wikipedia staff go through every website to check for its authenticity and legitimacy? Steve

That's weird, though. I have updated a number of wikipedia pages over the years, and I have never had an issue. Unless they are really clamping down on things.

I have repeatedly stated that one of the GP's biggest selling points is that it is designed to find the top 15 riders (or close to the top 15) in the world, whereas the world final certainly wasn't. The problem is that a lot of people still think the old system was best. As dad as Lindback, of course, part of it was because of his nationality, but it is still not obvious - despite what some people think - that there were other candidates clearly better than him. So, you have one "debatable" inclusion out of 15? Helluva lot better than the old days!

This is what gets me with modern society, and of course, social media is largely to blame. What people do now is no different to what they did years ago. The differences are : 1) It is now rammed down our throats via social media. 2) People today are intolerant, and offended by everything they see and read. I've raised this issue several times on here when lack of loyalty has been discussed. Collins did it. Nielsen refused to ride for Denmark. Mauger and Briggs honoured continental commitments instead of breaking their contracts to ride in rescheduled British fixtures. Kennett said he was going to ride for Denmark. Wigg, Smith, and Cox all took out foreign licenses and represented other nations. There were a few minor complaints, but everyone got on with their lives. Not these days! Not just Woffinden either. Look at the criticism of Jolts for representing Poland. Why? He lives there, and he has Polish citizenship. Do people whine about Ronnie Moore and Bob Andrews? They are no different. Fact (and there's that nasty word again) is, it doesn't - and shouldn't - make any difference to the way a rider's ability or achievements are viewed. Particularly when it has been happening for years, and everyone was okay with it.

I have never questioned your opinion of who was better! What I questioned was the fact that you said PC was better because Tai "isn't committed to British speedway". That is totally irrelevant when it comes to ability, achievement, and rating.

I think most people are in agreement that what we have now works. We had a discussion about it a few weeks back, and I did raise the issue of the winner of the individual GP not being the best rider on the night - maybe winning only the one race. However, the fact that the overall champion was decided by simple accumulation of points seemed to be the main thing that people wanted.

Of course. It doesn't matter what system you use, there will ALWAYS be anomalies - or at least the possibility of 'em...

So, me telling you that your prejudiced opinion is not "proof" that PC is better than Tai, is talking down to you?

Oh trust me, Einstein, I'm not the one who needs help... Iris tells you that you don't help yourself, and that you let prejudices cloud your view, and you take it as a compliment?

I am not going to apologise for correct use of the English language, and I am not going to "dumb down" for anyone. I attempt to write in a manner that is easy to understand and is not ambiguous. If there is something you don't understand, all you have to do is ask! I break things down into separate paragraphs and sections to make it easier for people to respond to individual points and sentences. When people can't - or won't - make the effort to understand what I am saying, or respond directly to simple questions or points, that's not my fault! However, it frustrates the hell out of me... I have made a couple of points on here that you still can't get your head round. I have tried to explain, and I have totally broken everything down so you can understand, but all you want to do is argue and accuse, and get your knickers in a twist. And you think it's ME that needs to chill? I know you STILL haven't got a clue what I am talking about, but I will say again that whatever you think about Tai IS NOT A FACTOR TO DETERMINE HIS ABILITY OR ACHIEVEMENTS, AND CANNOT BE USED AS SUCH.

What "opinion" of mine? I am asking you a question. Is it really that difficult to formulate an answer? You do realise that you are one of the most insulting people on here, often resorting to name-calling when you can't get your way? it just my opinion that Woffy has far and away the best world championship record of any British rider?

You don't get it, do you? The English language, I mean... I have explained time and time again, but you just wobble on repeating yourself rather than answering a simple question. Is it just my opinion that Woffy has far and away the best world championship record of any British rider?

So, it is just my opinion that Woffy has far and away the best world championship record of any British rider?

Please try reading - and understanding - what I said, rather than just blurting out nonsense. My point is this : It is your "opinion" that PC was "better" than Tai because Tai "isn't committed to English speedway". That is nonsense. Ability and achievement dictate how good someone is; your interpretation of his committal - or non-committal, as the case may be - has bugger all to do with how good he is or isn't. You attempting to use that belief to substantiate your view is as worthless as me saying Tai is better because I like his tattoos! I say Tai is better because his achievements are FAR superior to PC's achievements. That is FACT, not opinion. You say PC is better because you think he isn't committed to English speedway. That is OPINION, not fact. It doesn't matter how strongly you believe that Tai owes English speedway, or how many times you repeat it, that does not factor WHATSOEVER into any assessment of ability. Again, I am putting together a case based on facts, and attempting to engage in intellectual intercourse. You are just ranting, based on the fact that your opinions and beliefs cannot take precedence over fact and logic. I have never said you - or anyone else - is stupid. What you are trying to use to "prove" that is stupid.

I don't have an agenda against you; I have a distinct aversion to stupidity! Opinions don't matter - facts matter. Just because you think Tai "isn't committed to English speedway", you use that to devalue his ability and achievements. There is absolutely no correlation between the two, yet you continue YOUR agenda against a rider who has achieved far more than ANY OTHER BRITISH RIDER. I use FACTS, LOGIC, and REASON to show how good he is, and you counter that with an irrelevant opinion based on your dislike of him. How is that anything like an "agenda against you"? I don't feel that I am "above" you, but the facts I provide do far outweigh your opinion.

And into the 80's... I went there many times. Big open track, and they served the hottest tea on the planet! Steve

PC did not "win for England". Whatever England won as a team, was won by the WHOLE team. As has been said, he was just one of a number of world-class English riders at the time. Tai does not have that, and that is not his fault, but people still use that against him in an attempt to prove that he is not as good as PC. Again, I'm sure that you are using the three World Team Cup holds (and maximums) to show how good he was, aren't you? Again, England had more world-class riders at their disposal then than any other nation. THAT is why they won, not because of Peter Collins. Again, the only true top-liner he faced in those finals was Michanek. The other top riders of the era either didn't qualify for the final (Mauger, Olsen etc), or were on Collins' team! PC won twelve races in WTC finals against largely mediocre opposition. Woffinden won twelve races in the SoN final - against the World's top riders! And faced them twice! Your above response to falcace was irrelevant; nobody was talking about whether you "preferred" racing back in the day. Facts are facts, and the two most obvious facts are : 1) Tai's world championship record is far superior to that of any other British rider in history. 2) With Tai being the only true world-class rider available, it has been impossible for GB (as a team) to achieve the success of previous eras (a la 1970's Denmark, and I don't recall anyone saying Olsen wasn't that good, simply because Denmark weren't good enough to win anything as a team). The fact that you use the quality and success of other riders to bolster your views of PC is ridiculous, and the fact that you play down Woffinden's achievements simply because there have been no other quality British riders in recent years is doubly ridiculous.

Commitment to England, age, tattoos, charity work, literacy, vegetarianism, mid-season retirement, sexual orientation, or whatever... NONE of those factors have any relevance when determining the ability and achievements of a speedway rider.

So was the old world final system, so your point is?

That really is sad news...