chunky

Yeah, some World Champions won the title after one or two meetings, whereas others had to ride in three or four times that. Now, everybody starts out on an equal footing.

It's got nothing to do anything except having different opinions, and as such, there is no need for a "truce". As long as you don't get rude and aggressive, and you can stop making false accusations, there should no problems. You just have to accept that I am allowed to have opinions that differ from yours, and that I base them on logic, reason, and fact, rather than personal bias.

Riders all had different qualifying systems, and it was possible to scrape through a couple of meetings, put in one good night, and you were World Champ! Now, you have to perform over a whole season.

I know we were devastated when we realized we were going National League, but it really was a breath of fresh air. Having that heat-leader trio of Johnsy, Mike, and Jamie, was great. Having all those tracks within an hour of home was wonderful, and it is so depressing that we have lost nearly all of them...

1) But if it is easier for one rider, it easier for everyone. It is the equivalent of 11 riders qualifying from the I-C Final, and the top riders struggled there too at times. 2) That may be true, but just because a rider is past his peak, it doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve to be there, and it doesn't mean that they are worse than younger riders who aren't there. If you trying to have a true world championship, then fresh blood doesn't matter; the goal is to have the BEST riders on the world. Again, it was no different in the old days. Olsen, Davis, Michanek, and even Collins were well past their peak, and were still qualifying for world finals. If they are still good enough, then good luck to them...

IF, IF, IF!!! It means absolutely nothing, because it didn't happen...

I didn't misunderstand anything. For the umpteenth time, I BELIEVE HE WOULD HAVE MATURED, AND REACHED THAT LEVEL! Sadly, he was robbed of the opportunity, he never did reach that level, and we will never know if he would have done. It is pure conjecture. Had he not lost his life when and where he did, something else may have happened at another place and time. Two months later, we rode against Ipswich in the first leg of the Gold Cup final. Tommy couldn't have tangled with Billy Sanders, and broken a leg. He may have decided to retire. He might have been like Jack Millen, and got killed in a road accident. We can believe all we want, but we just don't know. We can only base our views on what actually happened, not what MIGHT have happened. I will give you another example. I hadn't said anything on here, but a few weeks ago, my wife wasn't feeling well. I decided to take the day off work and stay with her. I went out to get some milk, and when I got home, she was unconscious in a heap on the bedroom floor. She was in a coma for three days. Now, had I gone to work that day, she would PROBABLY have been dead when I got home. I didn't go to work, and she didn't die. Of course, I have been thinking about that, but it didn't happen, and it's no good trying to predict what WOULD have happened. Hell, I could have gone to work that day and got killed in a crash, but I didn't, and we will never know...

Please try reading and understanding what I said, rather than just repeating your views. 1982 means NOTHING. Tommy never reached that time, so we will NEVER know. Again, I believe he WOULD have got to that level - but he DIDN'T. I NEVER said he wasn't world class, but he hadn't reached that elite level of the top five or six riders in the world. And NO, the fact that he beat Piotr Bruzda, Herbert Szerecs, Graeme Stapleton, Zbigniew Marcinkowski, and Fritz Bauer DOESN'T mean anything. Sorry... The fact is that being a top rider in the BL - even back then - doesn't make you a God; to be one of the elite, you have to prove yourself against the elite, in elite events. And consistently. I had the greatest respect for Martin Ashby, Terry Betts, and Eric Boocock, and NONE of them were ever close to reaching the elite, despite breathtaking domestic form.

Firstly, let's forget the insults... Secondly, what happened to you claiming that, "everybody is entitled to an opinion"? Apparently you don't think I am! Unlike you - and I have stated this repeatedly - I use facts and figures to substantiate my opinion, rather than simple emotion and bias. Tommy was already established as a top BL rider, but that doesn't translate directly when compared to top level international events. Although he had appeared in several World Finals, he was never more than a contender for a mid-table finish. Yes, he did have two gold medals from the World Pairs, but let's look at the actual statistics. In 1973, he scored 9 points from six rides. Here's the complete list of riders he beat: Reidar Eide & Dag Lovaas, Ivan Mauger & Graeme Stapleton, Jiri Stancl & Petr Ondrasik, Zbigniew Marcinkowski, and Kurt Bogh. He also lost to (and scored fewer than) Vladimir Gordeev and Anatoli Kuzmin. In 1975, he scored 7 points from six rides. Here;s the complete list of riders he beat: Jan Henningsen (E/F), Adi Funk & Herbert Szerecs, Christoph Betzl and Fritz Baur, Piotr Bruzda, and John Boulger. It was an achievement to beat Ivan, although it wasn't his finest day. Eide, Lovaas, and Boulger were all decent riders, but none were world-beaters. The rest? Well... I had seen Tommy a few times in 1975, and yes he was very good; the last time I saw him was when he won The Laurels with a 15 point max. I hadn't been at all in 1976, but it was Tommy's death that brought me back the following week. I get the point that Doug is making, and I agree that he was much improved in 1976, and as I said, I think he WOULD have got there - quite possibly that same year - but it was too early in 1976 to actually say that he had reached the elite few. It was a terrible tragedy, and we will never know.

Doug beat me to it! Firstly, it is not an action photo; it is posed. It is Fred Ludlow on Otto Walker's bike at Portland, Oregon, in May 1921.

Because, at the time of his tragic death, he still hadn't shown anything like true class at the very top level. Yes, he may well have done, and I think he probably WOULD have done, but as of May 1976, he was not one of the very top echelon (alongside Collins, Olsen, Mauger etc). And that is coming from a lifelong Dons fan, and a huge Tommy fan.

I have exchanged MANY PM's with John, both on here and on FB. I have explained why people react the way they do, and tried to help him in different ways. I have also defended him, and - if he goes about things in a 'normal' manner - he is a very valuable member of any speedway group or forum.

I know they weren't "premature" departures, but throw in Olsen, Autrey, and PC (the end of 86), and that was a really bad time for speedway as far as a loss of talent...

Sorry, I would have thought you would have known the legendary Igor Plechanov...

I agree that players shouldn't be bullied, but he does his fair share too. Only yesterday he went on a tirade against me for posting information about a photo he posted, claiming it was worthless, and simply an effort to "eff him off". He also told me I needed educating, as I was just "guessing" information (which I took from a company website). I don't get offended if somebody corrects info I have posted, but I don't take it lightly when somebody makes false accusations against me.

Are you going to tell everyone who the Russian is?

So, it's not just me and you, then? He hates others too?

Are you serious? You made the first comment on the photo!

Gustix is clearly jealous of you, Steve, because you achieved more as a rider than he did!!!

How long have you been around, andout? Sadly, this really isn't unusual. I don't know if you saw what happened on another thread earlier? Gustix posted a similar question, something that I believed - and still believe - he knew (although apparently, he didn't know who went by the nickname "Briggo", or recognised him). I answered in a friendly and informal manner (using nicknames and first names) - as I thought it was just a little test to see if anyone else knew - and he blew a basket, and accused me of trying to "eff him up"! Like you, I don't know what he is trying to achieve when he posts stuff he knows, but acts like he doesn't...

Well, he isn't as well-known as a lot of the other Americans of the day, but Dons fans know Ray! We actually had our fair share of Americans over the years...

So, you really don't know who "Briggo" and "Salty" are? And you don't recognise them either? All I did was make a casual and informal response to let you know that I knew the riders, and you think I am "effing it up" for you? I will go back and edit it, just for you... You are a "non-Wimbledon supporter", yet you create a Wimbledon group on FB? Bizarre...

Well, I have that team pic. There are very few Dons' team photos I haven't got - or at least seen... The reason you might have figured out how I knew Ray Tauser is because HE was a Don too! He won the Star Championship in 1931...

Ted Brine (manager), Ron How, Cyril Brine, Gerry King, Gerry Jackson, Cyril Maidment, Ronnie Greene (promoter). Barry Briggs on bike with Bob Andrews and Bobby Croombs kneeling. 1958.

I will be different, and stick to true Kiwis. 1) Ivan 2) Briggo 3) Geoff Mardon 4) Ron Johnston 5) Larry Ross 6) Trevor Redmond 7) Bruce Cribb 8) Bruce Abernethy 9) Maury Dunn 10) Bob Duckworth