chunky

Davey and Timmo are fine, but I'm shocked that, in addition to the two teams you named, you didn't know that Mike Keen had an outing for Oxford at Southampton in 1963!

Neither did Mike Keen... In fact, when we did this before, the majority of riders who were claimed to be one-track riders weren't!

Another track I was not familiar with, in Stockton, CA. This was from the San Pedro News Pilot, on 2nd July, 1935. Miny Waln Cops Feature Bike Race at Stockton "Miny Waln, Syracuse, N.Y., won the final scratch event of a motorcycle racing program marked by several spills at the Stockton speedway last night. Sam Arena, San Jose, finished second to the former national champion in the main race."

That is a little odd, seeing that he was really was a well-known public figure, and there is quite a bit off stuff online. Here is a tribute to Sprouts from the September 1957 issue of American Motorcyclist magazine (I have included the spelling mistakes!) "Lloyd "Sprouts" Elder has received the final checkered flag! To present riders, the name doesn't mean much, but to the old-timers, it means that one of the greatest short track racers has passed on. Sprouts was known all over the world. England will remember him as one of the founders of cinder track racing which become so popular in the early thirties, in fact, crowds of 75,000 were common. South America will remember him as the world champion and Australia will recall that he was the best exponent of the short track broadslide. We will always remember him as one of the finest, most loyal supporters that the AMA had. Sprouts was instrumental in organizing the Eastern circuit of short tracks when the boys were riding every night in the week! He got the two circuits going on the coast, in fact one track at Long Beach was built to his specifications, sunken pits, etc. He visualized several circuits and winding up with a World Series and we had a couple of them. After he hung up his handlebars he served as AMA referee for the East and later he joined the California Highway Patrol where he served with distinction. He was severely injured while on duty and only his indomitable spirit and will to win kept him alive. In the past years he has loafed and taken life easy. The sport of motorcycling owes "Sprouts" much, and we know that the Milne brothers, Cordy and Jack, Lammy Lamoreaux, Jimmy Gibbs, Crocky Rawding, Bennie Kaufman, and Bo Lisman, all former cinder track stars, will echo our statement that there was only one kingpin "Sprouts Elder". To know him was a pleasure, to be his friends was a privilege. He lived, ate, and slept motorcycles. Old "No. 4" has passed on; but that spirit will forever be present whenever and wherever motorcycles are mentioned."

Now, here is an interesting one! I know this is a little later, but this was from "The Billboard" magazine! They apparently had a regular "Speedway Round-Up" feature, with nearly everything about cars (mostly midgets), but there was this, from November 23, 1946. "LOS ANGELES - Wilbur (Lammy) Lamoreaux, Glendale, Calif., won the night speedway national motorcycle title by capturing four straight races at Lincoln Park Stadium here Sunday (3) before 3,000 fans. He edged out Jack Milne, of Pasadena, 20 points to 19. Jimmy Gibb, of Hollywood, was third with 17; Byrd McKinney, Pasadena, 17 (lost in run-off with Gibb); Earl Farrand, Glendale, 14; Burton Albrecht, Monterey Park, 14."

Well, over the last 30 or 40 years, there have been a lot of indoor ice meetings around the US (I've been to several), but information is a lot harder to find that when outdoor meetings were advertised in the papers back in the 30's. Until now, I never realised that Fresno was such a hotbed of activity back then.

I know this is from 1940, but you said that was fine. This is from the Madeira Tribune, dated 18 July, 1940. Glendale Ghost Will Augment Rider's Ranks "Heavy traffic and competition of 1935 and 1936 when the short track motorcycle racing jockeys drew top crowds of between 5000 and 6000 fans to the Fresno State college stadium is in store for the fifth consecutive week on the quarter mile track here Saturday night beginning at 8 o'clock. Promoters of the weekly flat track sports announced today Earl Farrand, the well known Glendale Ghost who used to make sport in springing upsets over Lammy Lamoreaux, Corfu and Jack Milne and others, is being sought to augment the ranks of the scratch riders this week. The races, booked for an 8 p.m. starting time, consume approximately two hours running time."

Iris and I have had our issues in the past - quite heated, in fact - but we are both mature enough to move on without bearing grudges. And PLEASE, don't say anything about norbold; the situation between you two is ENTIRELY of your own doing.

You make false accusations and you resort to name-calling, and you claim that I am the nasty one? So it's okay for YOU to preach to others? Why should iris move on to another thread? This is HIS thread, so I don't see why he should abandon it just because you have got yourself into a pother and have hijacked it.

Looks like I have an apology to make. Seems like they DID keep scores in some meetings, although that may just be in Championship meetings. I still don't suppose many Americans were ardent scorekeepers and statisticians like we anoraks...

That sounds about right...

Then I am sure you will be interested in https://speedwayprograms.com/index.html There are some incredible finds on there from tracks I never knew existed! It's a goldmine of information. Google is a great friend...

Where did you get that info? I have found a programme that lists those teams, and the entire schedule for the evening. That "M. Parker" is Mark Porter.

From the San Pedro News Pilot, September 6, 1933. Please note the apparent duplication of the "scratch finals" (I assume one was the handicap final). "Wilbur (Lammy) Lamoreaux featured the Long Beach Motospeedway motorcycle racing program last night, winning every race he entered but one in which he spilled on the last lap. Lamoreaux took the scratch final from Cordy Milne, Bo Lisman, and Jack Milne, in that order, in 1:11.6. Shorty Campbell won the scratch final from Burton Albrecht and Jack Milne in 1:14.6 after Lamoreaux had spilled. Albrecht beat Ed Hinkle and McKinney nosed out Jack Milne in the match races. The Loyola Lions walked off with first honors, 75-51, in the team match races with the Long Beach Pirates."

From the San Pedro News Pilot: McKinney Again Winner of Motorcycle Feature Los Angeles, June 15, 1935 "Byrd McKinney, Pasadena rider, walked off with his second consecutive victory in a week here last night when he won the feature scratch event in motorcycle race in 1 minute, 8.6 seconds. Clocked in behind him, in the order named, were Earl Farrand, Glendale, Cordy Milne, Pasadena, and 'Peewee' Cullum, Los Angeles."

You're 'avin a larf, mate! I don't think there has EVER been anything "official" as far as results and scores in American speedway, except in the short-lived league racing. The formats for domestic meetings are basically just a series of qualifying races with riders advancing according to position, and nobody is interested in keeping scores... A few years ago, they had a meeting in Springfield, Illinois, which was actually run (under the jurisdiction of the AMA) as a qualifier for the US National Championship. It was a standard 20-heat, 16-rider format. I think I was the only person in the entire place with any kind of scorecard (I printed my own). Seriously. People were whining because they had no idea what was going on, and wondered why a rider with three last places was still riding? They have no concept of anything other than a win-and-advance system, and certainly no inclination to keep any kind of scores. Results are just listed as "Scratch Main" and "Handicap Main", and nothing that happens before the finals is considered worthy of record-keeping.

Here is a clipping from the Fresno Bee on Tuesday, September 24, 1935. "Prospects for an all-star scratch lineup for the final weekly short track motorcycle races Thursday night in the Fresno State College Stadium were given another boost today with the entry of two additional riders, one of whom will be making his first appearance here this season. Byrd McKinney, Pasadena "strongman" of the short track and Tiny Carroll are the latest additions and bring the total of "zero" riders entered for the final chance for points to qualify in the national championships to seven. Already entered are two former champions, Cordy Milne, 1934 titleholder, and Wilbur (Lammy) Lamoreaux, 1933 champion, and Ken Scofield, Pete Colman, and Sam Arena. McKinney's entry, his first here this season, will provide another week of strongman art on the track. The husky blond rider from Pasadena rates as one of the shortest in the game, along with Big Bo Lisman, and the two furthered their claims to that honor by placing second and third Sunday in a hill and road race at the Ascot Speedway in Los Angeles. Lisman will not ride here this week. The program will be featured with trick riding by Putt Mossman, world champion stunt rider, his wife and sister, Mrs. Ray Grant and one match race to be announced tomorrow. Mossman and his "bag o' many tricks" will be a complete new lineup including one with the three lined up on the motor as it travels 50 miles an hour down the track. Additional handicap stars for the program also were announced today and include Leonard Andres of Stockton, Dick Wulzen of Merced, Al Lauer of Sacramento and Bud Laughlin of Sacramento. Al Chasteen, Shorty Campbell, Chico Duarte, a newcomer from Los Angeles, Rusty Roberts, and Ray Grant already are entered in that division."

Was Brian Collins still living in Scotland when he was at Wembley and/or Poole? I think Andy Campbell was still in Surrey when he rode for Berwick.

Other than odd newspaper reports, there doesn't seem to be that much info readily available. The problem is that there never seemed to be much separation between true speedway and other motorcycle disciplines. Even back to the early days, riders seemed to be competing against each other on the boards tracks and on dirt, and even when the board tracks died out, that never really changed (there were some big dirt tracks that could never really be classed as speedway). Of course, we never had the purpose-built (or at least purpose-laid) tracks over here...

You could always start another one...

Look John, we have had our problems, but I don't dislike you. I dislike the way you carry on sometimes, when we should just be discussing speedway, and you really don't do yourself any favours. I have conversed with you on a number of occasions, on BSF posts, FB groups, and by PM on both, and much of it is me offering friendly advice - which you tend to ignore. I have told you many times that you are (and should be) a valuable member of this forum. Would I do that if I really had a problem with you? Yes, a few days ago, I was annoyed with you. Why? Because you were being rude and very ignorant to an individual who asked you legitimate questions. I questioned when you posted Mike Kemp's photo, after the discussion we had about copyrights. I wasn't rude or aggressive, and I wasn't making fun of you; I simply made a friendly suggestion that you indicated that you had permission (to save any hassle on here). You got in a huff over that, for some reason. I'm sorry, but it still shocks me (and many others on here) that you didn't recognise Plechanov, Moore or Mauger. However, you got in a huff over that. It is true that you have contradicted yourself several times regarding your career/non-career as a speedway journalist. If you contradict yourself like that, don't be surprised when people mock you. When you have genuine questions, I am happy to help wherever possible - as I am when ANYBODY needs assistance. I was grateful when you corrected one of my recent posts - and I acknowledged it. I genuinely am (I know Sidney will disagree) a nice guy, and will help anyone in any way I can. I just have a low tolerance for stupidity...

You reckon I don't back down? You are the one who keeps the grudges going, despite the fact that I have never considered us to "be at war". If I believe in something, why should I back down? At least I use fact, logic, reason, and statistics to substantiate my viewpoint. If YOU believe that strongly in something, it would probably help your case if you attempted the same, rather than resorting to name-calling and insults, ridiculously false accusations, and downright lies. To say that I have "involved" norbold is downright stupid. Norman is a well-respected and mature individual who is old enough to make his own mind up about things. When I was going through stuff with gustix, YOU (as a complete outsider) - decided to get involved - totally of your own free will. To suggest that Norman DIDN'T do a similar thing, and/or is my puppet, is a despicable claim, and you should be ashamed of yourself. It is not a case of "loyalty" to me, merely a case of reading - and comprehending - what is there in black and white.

You either can't read or you're a liar; make up your mind. If it makes you happy, I'm a f*cking moron! I'm f*cking stupid, and I can't remember sh*t! I wish I was as f*cking smart as you and knew as much about speedway as you! There. Happy???

There is nothing mysterious about Terry Mussett, and I cannot fathom why you still main there is. He is a former Wimbledon rider. End of. I know you didn't recognise Igor Plechanov; I just don't understand why you didn't. It made the situation even more confusing when you followed with a post about Igor! It seems strange that you knew it was him in an action photo, but not in a portrait. I'm sorry that the photo of Ronnie and Ivan was apparently poor on your screen, but they were instantly recognisable to the rest of us.

Yout never do, and I don't really understand why. Do you not know what you post on here? Do you remember the discussion we had about the photo copyrights? You then posted a photo on here that had "The Hellesdon Collection" stamped across the middle! Now, I don't know, perhaps you had permission from Mike Kemp (I believe he owns The Hellesdon Collection, but I could be wrong) to post that here, but if that is the case, all you had to do was indicate that. A lot of the pics on FB are from the John Somerville collection, but it seems to be standard procedure to state, "Photo courtesy of the John Somerville Collection". As I said, I used photos from online collections on my blog, but I always posted the correct attribution to cover me legally. That's all we were saying.