Parsloes 1928 nearly

I guess it is academic. But Phil you do need to pay a trip to Wembley (call it in the name of research) where you shall find a range of hotels , bars and eateries that were NOT there when the Busby Babes mark two lifted the European Cup..!

Well indeed. I'm sure we're all very grateful that such a major stadium has a deal to stage the GB SGP (though to be fair the MS and the city do benefit financially from the deal - it's NOT an act of benevolence..); but Hump is spot on, Cardiff is NOT this great convenient location. Look where the majority of Speedway tracks are... It ain't that near South Wales!!

And just two years to the 90th. anniversary!!!

I never said tourists would go to Wembley in significant numbers for a Speedway meeting. I was just pointing out that London IS one (if not THE) biggest tourist attractions in the world... I don't want to dig out Cardiff - I've been to the MS for football and the SGP and it is a great venue and Cardiff seems an okay place; but as others have pointed out once Wembley was rebuilt things like the FA Cup Final and the RL Chalenge Cup Final (which I've been to every year since its return to Wembley) were not reticent about returning to their spiritual home. The access problems you mention certainly don't bother them and frankly it is a myth that Wembley is difficult to access from central London and stations like Euston and King's Cross... I couldn't agree more that our sport has been treated shockingly by those who have promoted the Wembley legend and we have been air-brushed out of its history. I can no more defend that than I can even understand why that has happened. There's not a shadow of doubt (we've had the discussion before...) that Speedway is in the top three of sports/events to have been held at the old stadium in crowd terms and the top three (Football, Greyhound Racing and Speedway) are way, way ahead of any other events... But I do think that IF someone gambled on an event there (and sadly I guess it's not likely currently that anyone would...) it would attract a very big crowd.. As for Gothenberg? - well having been more thoroughly soaked to the skin there in '77 than I have been anywhere else ever(!) and I'm certain you've been soaked there many, many more times Phil, it does seem weather-wise a wholly unsuitable place for anyone to try and hold a Speedway meeting! Now I'm really jealous...: I really wanted to see Evel Knieval but my Dad wouldn't take me!!

Yes it was - though actually it was effectively a re-branding (for one year at that venue only) of the former Embassy Internationale... Which in itself was conceived initially in '61 as the World Final 'alternative' to compensate British fans for the fact that the WF wasn't always here. In the case of '82 not even on this continent! I firmly believe that a big enough meeting at Wembley could sell out... Which is why I support bringing the sport to the New Wembley but don't believe that the GB SGP is anything like a big enough event for such an enterprise...

Sounds a tad greedy!

Twickenham certainly would but the Wembley authorities..? Nah not a chance, they'd hire it out for anything..!

Goodness, Phil...! Think back to when we did have the WF at Wembley..: how would you have reacted to the suggestion, oh, we're going to stop using this venue in London and go to, er, Cardiff instead!! Wembley is in LONDON... - you know London? One of the greatest cities in the world and one of the most visited by tourists! Funny how all those tourists don't share this view that Cardiff's a better place!! And you're very behind the times about the facilities around the Stadium itself.. Besides which what would be wrong with an English GP at Wembley or the OS and a Welsh GP at the MS? Throw in Hampden Park for a Scottish GP too!

Nope and it never did for the World Finals of 1936-60, '62, '63, '65, '67, '69, '72, '75, 78 & '81...! As I recall none of these got rained off did they..?!!

Er, but the Millenium Stadium itself is for a "rectangular sport" and no probs laying a temporary track there!! As sidney says, not only could Wembley be adapted in exactly the same way as the MS it would without question attract a far bigger crowd and far more media attention... I'd go back to my old chestnut, though (and no, 'knot' to start up the tree gags again!!), that I really don't think that an early-season, largely inconsequential SGP would warrant using Wembley... Simply not a big enough event at all... Of course when it comes to tracks where Speedway could be staged rather easier because of their shape and the presence of a track then there will very soon be an eminently suitable (and rarely used at that..) venue in the capital...: the Olympic Stadium..!! I think we should remain cautiously optimistic.. There are spare weekday nights at Wimbledon with no events on. A track could be laid relatively easily. There's still motor sport there (Spedeworth-promoted Stocks/Bangers) - so a Speedway promoter wouldn't have to overcome planning and noise hurdles. All it would take would be a change of owner of the stadium or of the GRA; and let's be honest in these harsh economic times surely the current speculator owners might well soon be considering giving it all up as a bad job and selling on. Or even possibly relenting on their anti-Speedway stance... So it may never re-open but I still believe there's hope it could...

Sadly not. There are only THREE greyhound stadiums in Greater London: Plough Lane (which of course could still stage Speedway but for the owners' stance against it); the rebuilt Crayford which is too small and designed in such a way to make Speedway impossible; and my local dog track, Romford which would be my dream to introduce the sport but is totally surrounded by housing so getting planning consent would be as close to impossible as to make no difference.. Other stadia..? Hmm, well some football grounds were looked at in 2005/06 but nothing suitable found... The only real option imho is the Olympics Park site... But that's another debate!!!

Not strictly accurate about the London Stadium (sic) - the actual stadium went bust (actually the owners into liquidation before that Speedway league season for the London Lions in '96 even began) so whatever had happened with that promotion it was going to close.. Interesting what you say about the "several potential stadiums".. Certainly would be very interested to hear where you have in mind..

Well it's a chicken and egg situation isn't it. No tracks at all in London so frankly how can people show an interest in the sport..? Though we've no idea of the number of people from the London area who might watch Speedway on Sky.. In the part of east London I live in many, many people recall the old Custom House and generations of their families attended there.. But of course West Ham Speedway closed nearly 40 years ago now!! But IF there was an accessible and well-publicised track in the East London area who's to say that such latent interest/support couldn't be realised again..?

Hmm, not too sure... I wouldn't think that Denmark would be any higher for one...

Oh I don't know, I think it was just a slight branch-ing off!

Agree with you big shame no NL racing at Arena. But Roger Cearns has NOT yet said they'll not be racing at Central Park in 2012 - so there IS still hope...

Hmm, well age has been a sub-theme of this splendid thread so interesting to read this too... This thing with the rising age of people attending sport isn't confined to Speedway.. The average age of people attending Premiership football is also at many clubs massively higher than it used to be. Membership schemes and hugely inflated prices and season ticket waiting lists measured in decades rather than years are major factors in that.. With Speedway it's a bit different but the lack of the media focus there once was (how many young people ever encounter Speedway in the sports pages or on TV..?!) plus the polarisation of sports coverage which concentrates so much on top level football; and yes, also higher admission prices are all meaning less of a new generation of young fans than probably ever before... Which does not bode well for the future..

Well, Dave, it's certainly no Oak.. And Acacia you haven't noticed, we'd all Pine away without this thread...: Woodn't Yew? Or have you Knot Twigged that yet?

I certainly agree that this places Olsen - well imho... - as the top Danish rider of all time. Before Ole, Denmark had no pedigree in producing great Speedway riders... He was the trailblazer. sidney likes using tennis allusions and there's a suitably Scandinavian one with Bjorn Borg... The same reasoning behind rating Olsen so highly (certainly in my all-time top six - don't know why we've settled on six! - riders of all time...) would see me place the great Mirac above his two esteemed fellow World Champ Kiwis... Yes, the great Ronnie Moore of whom none other than Mr. Mauger has written, "Without Ronnie, there would have been no Briggo and no Ivan Mauger; whenever he came home to NZ it was like the arrival of Elvis. He was our Pele if you like." As for the deviation of this thread... Come on, it's the winter (and doesn't it seem so tonight..?!) - we're surely allowed on the BSF to meander around a bit and let's face it, there's been plenty of lively debate!!

Great to see this thread back. Anyone gonna to update if there are any changes to that core list...? Buzz still stuck on 18 btw!!

No, it's NOT my opinion... The World Final was NOT a lottery... Look up the word, 'lottery'...!!! Trust me mate I have zero interest in Led Zeppelin... Joe Strummer being dead would be a far more valid example..

Okay thanx. But I do have to say that whatever you think about the significance of gate positions it was a totally over the top response to claim that (1) the old WF was a lottery (it wasn't and all the facts point to it not being so...); and (2) to slate the old system on the basis of gate positions when this is a formula always used in 20 heat/16 rider indivs - including current GPs! You COULD if you wanted to conduct a critique of the old system's arguable shortcomings, mention the various points of controversey and bad luck and ironically that's recently been debated at some length with some vey interesting contributions. Maybe me and you should steer clear of football and Speedway where we always disagree and stick to politics where we're on the same wavelength!!!

Hmm, okay very amusing... But let's face reality: a 20 heat, 16 rider indiv. format means a rider gets FIVE rides and there's only FOUR gate positions. So shock! horror! they all have to get one (just one...) gate position more than once... This COULD be more or less advantegous depending on a range of cirumstances. But in order to WIN such a meeting one needs (basically) a good performance (mainly winning races that is...) in ALL five heats, so actually the significance of the gate you get twice is only of some and not critical importance. Plus as we've shown the likes of Collins and Olsen were incredibly adept at coming from behind anyhow, so though gating is of course important it's not the be all and end all.. This debate about gate positions arose because orion claimed that the old indiv. WF was a rubbish format because who won was a lottery due to some issue (he never explained...) about gate positions. Patently that was nonsense..

Indeed. Though the bigger story in '72 was surely the first ride fall by Olsen. After that he reeled off four straight wins in one of the greatest performances ever seen at the Empire Stadium (and actually make that nine in a row, as he was unbeaten in all five three years later [my, he must've had GREAT gate positions in all those rides!! ]); and that's certainly another example of one duck egg on the score card denying a rider the world title...

A brilliant post! There were indeed incidents and 'what ifs' of this type aplenty; but I'd argue that is what makes sport the exciting thing it is... After all the greatest sprinter in the world was recently ruled out of defending his world title due to a false start. On such things are the dramatic stories across the generations written... Another example from another sport is the unbeatable Hungary side (who'd thrashed everyone including the Germans earlier in the tournament) losing to West Germany in the Final of the 1954 World Cup. Of course based on performances across the whole year in each case Bolt and Puskas' bunch would be world champs but that's (often...) not how it works... Added to the '77 Final, remember that after Boulger's fall, only Lee made it back on track in time to beat the two minutes with Mauger & Olsen still, one assumes, trying to remove mud from man and machine... I'm fairly certain (though it was in Swedish) that the announcement WAS made that both had failed to make the 2 mins and were excluded. Two things followed. One Lee double-backed towards the pits; and then I guess the ref considered discretion should be applied (they were after all two legends of the sport!) and allowed them back in and all three rode in the rerun. I often wondered (and once asked Michael about this...) if Lee had carried on to the tapes and waited there IF the other twos' exclusion might have stood... That would've meant a run-off between PC and the teenager Lee...! THAT would have been great!! And as said, these memories are possible all these years on, because hugely dramatic incidents stick in the memory... THAT'S above all what was special as a sporting spectacle with the one off WF..