Parsloes 1928 nearly

Now, now... I know you're being very vocal here and making all sorts of utterly bizarre claims but you CAN'T be getting away with this one! The "no hopers" that Rembras finished either level with or above included: THREE former and/or future champs in Mauger, Michanek and Lee and three others who finished at least once on a World Final rostrum, Simmo, Jessup and Autrey! You are perfectly entitled to your view but twisting reality and frankly trying to rewrite history doesn't exactly strengthen your case I'd have to say!

Think you remain on a wind up... But please explain this comment. There are not even BRITISH qualifiers for the SGP and certainly aren't, for example, USA ones..! The notion that there's a world-wide set of 'qualifiers' for the current World Championship SGP series is total fantasy...!

Hi norbold - sounds good... Tell me, and I know I SHOULD be up to speed on all your publshed works(!), but aside from the section in your seminal history of London tracks, have you written a book covering Lea Bridge yet..? I want to talk to you about a museum project in the Millfields area. I shall PM ya!!

Er, no I certainly have not... your rather curious interpretation of things is NOT "my own words". And please explain in what possible way is the Australian championship "in effect a qualifier for the GPs"..? You seem to have suffered a sense transplant!!! But under the old system it was infinitely more so than is the case today. sidney gets a lot of stick but this is a massively valid point. Would be nice to see it addressed instead of spurious points about African riders in the '70s missing out!! The Olympics is a massive commercial enterprise (check out the price of tickets for the 100 metres final!) but you know what, Usain Bolt isn't seeded into the Final and if he was to cock up as he did in the World Championships he'd be out... It's what called SPORT. If we want a 'circus' then fair enough... I prefer it to be a competitive sport.

No - there is no argument possible when people simply refuse to respond to any points made... Iris normally contributes really good postings to this Forum but his contributions to this thread have been utterly pants!!

Aaaggghhh!! The question ISN'T was the old now defunct system any better, it's is the CURRENT system as fair or as good as it could be!!!! As people refuse to answer the criticisms made of the current system one has to assume that no, it's NOT a fair and properly constitued world championship!!

I agree we need to shelve this arhgument - because you have with this posting completely confirmed that you have NO defence of the current SGP system and have NO interest in listening to positive criticisms of the way in which so many riders are allowed techically automatically to remain in it year on year.

My knowledge of the World Championships only goes back to the early 1970s but there were certainly Australasian based qualifiers in those days. It is true that for a long period during the 50s and 60s there weren't American qualifiers but affer Autrey's pioneering trip here the USA were then included int he system and held qualifiers. I think tbh it's time you ANSWERED some of our questions rather than keep asking ones of us, but now the latest have been answered maybe you will.. I see you've ignored my point that it's far more relevant to debate the CURRENT system than hark on about the past! Still this IS in the 'Years Gone By' section!!

Er, I think you'll find that iris was "picking apart" the old World Championship system..!! It's strange that once any concerns are raised about the CURRENT system (obviously more important as a topic of debate because it IS the current system!), instead of trying to defend it, the main apologists want to pick the tiniest of holes in the previous system. That's NOT what's required. The point is simple (though I do agree that in his zeal to illustrate, sidney may have over-complicated matters a tad!!): the current system does not allow enough 'entry' into it and is too pitched in favour of a few against the interests of the majority. The word I've used is that ii is less metrocratic (like democratic but based on merit...) than is ideal for a world championship. The paucity of new blood has been starkly illustrated by the fact that in the past two years the actual whole series has been won by the two riders who've been in it from the start and are (unsurprisingly) also the oldest. That's no slur on them - they won fair and square and both were significant achievements.. But surely somehere in that fact lurks a slight concern that the SGP system is not really allowing the sport to move forward as much as would be ideal.. These are only my views (though shared by a number of others) - what would be nice to see would be a defence of the system which this year allowed ELEVEN from last years' 15 straight back in as opposed to say allowing open qualification each year. Discussions about Ivan Mauger's form in the early '60s are not required!!

So are you suggesting that a modern day 'Ivan', riding only in Australia/NZ would have any chance in the current GP system..?

These are good points sidney - trouble is the apologists for the SGP system will use them (eg the bit about Peter Collins) as a way of turning things on their head (as is their wont) in making out the old system was "unfair". It wasn't unfair - it was what's known as competitive sport - something which takes no prisoners. The current system may to them seem fairer to a small elite (actually it is...) but to the detriment of those 'outside' trying to get in; and THAT'S what's wrong and what runs so contrary to the normal tenets of sporting competition...

Cheers Malc. Will get up to Loomer Rd. this year I promise, as surely I must owe you a beer... And yes, I know I must stop calling you Shirley!!!

Ever argumentative! If you look back, this mini-discussion within a thread originated because it had been suggested that special dispensation be given for a 14 year old to join an NL side. I said that (and reckon you'd agree..., possibly!) that, that would be a step too far and that 15 is young enough.. Of course riders of younger age competing against others in same age range is okay and at places like Iwade & Lydd already happens...

As you say really not much to ask for from a World Championship..

Well I see your point but surely you must agree that there must be a cut-off point younger than which one can't compete against adults..? 12 year olds going into races featuring also a 30 year old..? I really don't think it would be anyone's interest for something like that to be permissable...

That's because these are examples of the SORT of rider now denied a crack at the World title... You obviously think that's okay so fair enough...

You're wrong - no one bangs on about what happened 16 years ago; those of us with entirely justifible concerns about the way the SGP series is run (bearing in mind it's MEANT to be the sport's world championship) are pointing out what's wrong with the system NOW. The old WF system is only a point of reference. It is clear if the Speedway World Championship is to have credibility as something which there's a fair qualification into and not one so massively pitched in favour of an elite few, that things like qualification methods (eg an early season series of qualifers leading to a later season championship series) need to be considered as an alternative. There are enough dates and venues for this to be a possibility and the boost it would give to the sport NOW would imho be considerable... Soooo conservative to suggest that no change is possible and we must stick with the current system and the same old faces!

The "majority of riders"..? What about them..? Not at all sure what you mean..? What I do know is that the huge majority of riders in it three years ago have NOT lost their places and we (and they) can look forward to seeing them in 2012!!!

No I guess there isn't... Though there are fewer and fewer actual examples you can come up with now, which might explain why you went so far back in time for your carefully chosen 'examples'...

Hmm, maybe. But such a concept doesn't seem to bother those organising Test Cricket series and the Six Nations RU..

Hmm, I'm not exactly ancient meself! And - though it be a different field of interest! - check out how many gigs I went to last year (in separate thread, 'natch!) to see how much,I in fact, I "am down with the yoof"!!! There's this crazy assumption on here that if yiou express a certain point of view you're in some way prehistoric!!! Hmm, less of the "old codgers" - am fairly certain I'm younger than you!!!!! But yes fair enuff, this theme has indeed been banged on long enough by now, so I shall go into (youthful!) retirement on the subject!!

As sidney says, smacks of desperation and - by no means not for the first time - there's a tone of agression by those who seek to defend the SGP system.. I can accept that there is an SGP system now - as you say, as it's a reality one has no choice but to "deal with it". But I find it really strange how a group of people on here are so ultra-defensive about the way the SGP is configured when there are irrefutable arguments that the field is too cosseted and it's far too designed around protecting those in it rather than encouraging those with ambition to qualify... References to Michael Max and Screeny which is surely going back quite a while is not the most convincing way of refuting those sort of points!!

ONE example...! Phew! Very convincing argument!!!

No - pay attention, the bit in bold in my re-quoting in my post was the bit I said was a good idea... That was the whole purpose of, er, me putting that bit in bold!

A really good idea...