SwineTown

Hi, Can any vintage bike aficionados help us ID this machine and tell me if it is a speedway bike? Looks like an early Jap to me but this is not really my field. And I guess that the long/grasstrack bikes looked similar enough. Any ideas for a date? Looks late 40s/early 50s to me. LINK: Click here Names on back of picture: Denis Comley Les Lindsey (on bike) Terry Webb Johnny Williams Geoff or Jeff Browning Thanks in advance for any help ST

The Defunct site is wonderful. Some great images. It never occurred to me that there would be cigarette cards! Does anyone know if these cards continued after '49 (eg-are there cards with Swindon Riders on?).

Thanks for that link. However, it's often hard in my position to apply some of the guidelines listed - and we are relying more and more on material drawn up for archives/museum/library projects.

[...]so does the 70 years after the death of the photographer rule still apply then? Yeah - this is still not clear to me. Your ‘orphan’ clause[...] The 'orphan' was really in the context of historical material with little to guide you in its date or authorship. I am still learning how this is put into practice. on going problem with things like Ebay[...]That's terrible Jim - What's so bad about this is that really Speedway is small world. They would not have to look far to find out about you. Just because its on the internet does not mean its free to use. Completely true! - and thats been the downfall of 1000s every year. However there are companies who massively exploit this issue and issue dubious claims for £1000s with the onus on the 'infringer' to prove ownership. There are image 'Superpowers' out there acting like gangsters. Often they just hope people panic and pay. In your case I guess it may be expensive and often fruitless to pursue this -------------------------------------------- I believe that copyright & surrounding issues are in this mess, legally, internationally, because there is almost no rational way of setttling it fairly and consistently. It almost defies comprehension. I've a Masters in philosophy and beginning my PhD but need a lie down after trying to think it through for more than 10 minutes. Sod Kant! Who needs Wittgenstein?! Consider a picture taken in, say, 1940 by Joe Bloggs. Maybe it was made into a commercial postcard. Do the postcard company own the image? Maybe there may have been no clear deal over these issues. If Joe was working for them when he took it then we get 1 answer, if not, then another. People bought this postcard and collectors have them now - what rights do the owners of the postcard have (or the purchasers of Jim's pics) have? None maybe? Can they photograph their postcard - their own property? Put it online? Publish a book with their collection in? Use an image on ebay to sell it? Say 'Joe' died in 1941. It is still in copyright if we know who he is? And if we don't? What if the postard company folded? What if it was bought up by another years later? What if THEY folded (this is VERY common - a big chain of different commercial owners, all now gone). If the original gets lost and ends up being sold with no info then maybe the 'chain' back to 'Joe' is permanently broken. What if an archive bought it for our collection - Can they charge reproduction rights? Is copyright is still separate? Can they sell copies to the public? Or commercially? How could they check? If an archive scan it and put it online they'd need copyright permission - who do they contact? How do they begin to check? If someone found the online scanned version, well, the archive must 'own' certain rights for that image as a digital entity. Can a postcard owner use our image to sell his copy online? If someone does publish it in a book then eventually that book will go out of copyright - but possibly at different times each side of the Atlantic! USA laws have changed several times and some things have come BACK into copyright (Disney went to HUGE HUGE lengths to stop the image of Mickey Mouse et al going out of copyright - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act). Google Books has scanned 1000s of out-of-copyright books but they own the rights over those scans themselves. Will the digital versions they have made one day expire too? IMO none of these rhetorical questions have bulletproof answers. I'll keep plugging away but I feel that the law in this case is a flimsy levee and that in truth its just a lawyers goldmine that protects the biggest players. I might see things differently in a months time!

Thanks for the reply arnieg, We have a complete run of the Adver from 1854 (& the other local papers), but also have 100s of pictures within our collection duplicated from the Advertiser many years ago. At the moment we are leaving thsoe out of this project. I am planning on making an appeal to Swindon fans for donations of pictures (or duplicates/scans) they have taken over the years - especially team photos and pic of the stadium. Similar appeals will be made in other areas too. We just need clarity about WHO took the pic and under what terms they provide it to us. And we need to be a bit selective! As for progs, I DID find this: http://www.flickr.com/groups/footballprogrammecovers/ - so they don't seem to care! thanks for your posts arnieg, norbold & speedyguy. Much appreciated.

might be a Anti-virus software or firewall problem

Of course, norbold - without the collectors, much of this stuff would never have come to light. In fact it is the process of collecting which often creates the value: one old speedwy pic might be nice - but a gigantic lifetime collection is a hugely valuable resource. But the magpie tendency which motivates the collector seems to prevent them from thinking ahead to protect their hard work. It applies in all areas - huge art collections with treasured masterpieces tucked away in private homes, selfish collectors buying black market antiquities - even sordid European leaders possibly looting undeclared ancient graves for their own vanity! As a musician it often saddens me to think that experts estimate that the greatest musical instruments in the world - 1950s Les Pauls, Stradivari violins, etc - are often largely left - unused - in bank vaults as investments!

Cheers norbold. With photographs the copyright does not expire until 70 years AFTER the death of a named photographer - or after 1st publication if author is unknown. We have a great flow-chart for determinng copyright. There is a copy here: click for the .pdf - takes a moment to open - maybe right-click and select 'save target/link as' There are so many exceptions, so many different types of use etc that its often - in disputes - a case of "whose lawyer is more expensive?". The internet has multiplied the problems buy a gigantic factor. In my profession there is a fair amount of goodwill towards archives & public libraries and we often get a high degree of cooperation. There is an "orphan" clause - if you have a photo with no details - as you describe - no date, no photographer and no reasonable way of discovering it - then you can in good faith go ahead with using it. I do get cheesed off with the amount of stuff (photos, papers, documents, film, archives etc) in private collections. The collectors can always outbid the museums/archives/libraries - and almost, with few noble exceptions - they are effectively lost to the rest of the world. Often huge private collections of various material ends up in landfill after the death of the collector, whose stuff is a burden to those who have to clear the house. This happened very recently in Swindon with a GIGANTIC collection of rare - mostly unique local history material where nobody else in the family had any idea about its value and no idea who to contact (archives will come round and take it away at your convenience!). You'd think serious collectors of anything would KNOW they MUST make provision for this. Even worse is the rate at which clubs, businesses and organisations skip historically valuable paperwork etc to regain space/avoid FOI enquiries (Given half a century or so the mundane because the fascinating). I can't even think about this without getting depressed!

Thanks for the reply.

Dear all, I just wanted to ask how various Speedway history writers out there on the BSF have dealt with copyright issues for illustrations. What problems and solutions have you encountered? In particular for club-related ephemera like programmes, tickets etc. I am working on a few Web 2.0 ideas (-Flickr-/-Facebook- / -Twitter-) for the Swindon Local Studies Archive. The key project is an online gallery of images, postcards, photographs, maps etc , all scanned from our collection. For those interested: Swindon Local Studies Flickr Gallery We would also be thrilled if anyone out there has photographs relating to Swindon Speedway that they would be willing to donate. Some people donate prints or CDRs of images for our collection, some are allowing us to use the images online, we inherit some, and others we have bought over the decades. We have very little in the way of Swindon Speedway photographs. And of course I'd like to change that! You can PM me with any questions, ideas or suggestions. ST

With who? We have some good prospects but 3 of the 4 countries in the SWC final, plus Denmark, have dozens - some could even almost track alternative youth teams that would be in with a shout.

:D

Well that completely kills it for the UK audience - and people who don't have Sky or internet access won't, in most cases, be able to view it at the pub.

Officially still delayed. Decision at 7pm

Nope - tastes of that additive it has which seems to be banned in other countries! lol Weather update anyone?

https://twitter.com/CharlieCW

Just hope Russia are competitive. C'mon the Ruskies!

Emil is a brilliant rider doing EXACTLY what Nicki, Gollob, Crump, Loram, Mauger, Olsen, Briggo, etc all did in their day.

IMO take a squad of 7, each rider can have a maximum of 5 rides, minimum = 0, and the rest is up to the team manager.

I really appreciate you putting these up - I missed the last 4 races!. Thanks ST

Yep Sandie - sorry, posted this and spotted the other thread afterwards.

Wasn't sure where to post this very sad news: http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/sport/s...ilby__64__dies/ --------------------------------------------------------- Robins legend Kilby, 64, dies 2:01pm Sunday 11th January 2009 SWINDON speedway hero Bob Kilby died this morning at the age of 64. Swindon-born Kilby, a member of the legendary 1967 British League title-winning team, passed away at his home in Stratton St Margaret. Kilby, who rode for Swindon in three spells over a 20-year period, was revered as the best-ever Swindon-born rider and also mentored other famous town riders, including current Robins boss Alun Rossiter and Malcolm Holloway. A FULL TRIBUTE TO KILBY WILL APPEAR IN TOMORROW'S SWINDON ADVERTISER ------------------------------------------------------------------

Is Nicki ok for this? Adams is def in according to MR

Comedy - cant believe this thread was already up'n'running when I got on the forum. The Swindon mafia are pre-empted yet again.